Topic: Snap penality for spells

[Faustized]

A simple question: what is the penality for casting a spell in snap phase?

Searching in Rolemaster Standard Rules i can  find something only in the table T- 4.6 at  the voice of
"Non-Instantaneous Spell Cast as Snap Action" in wich it seems that instaneous spells have no penality for being cast in snap and while other still take a -20.

Are there other penalities i don't know to apply for spell in that phase?

[Cory Magel]

I believe you merely have the -20 penalty on a standard spell cast in snap (and none on the instants as you mention).

Basically, spells and attacks need to be treated in the same manner for the most part for balance reasons, so both will be treated the same way in the various phases (Snap, Normal, Deliberate).

[markc]

I believe you merely have the -20 penalty on a standard spell cast in snap (and none on the instants as you mention).

Basically, spells and attacks need to be treated in the same manner for the most part for balance reasons, so both will be treated the same way in the various phases (Snap, Normal, Deliberate).

I agree. Instants can be cast at any time/phase as they are fast casting spells and thus no penalty.
MDC

[Kristen Mork]

I believe you merely have the -20 penalty on a standard spell cast in snap (and none on the instants as you mention).

Basically, spells and attacks need to be treated in the same manner for the most part for balance reasons, so both will be treated the same way in the various phases (Snap, Normal, Deliberate).

I don't think there's a bonus for casting in the Deliberate phase.  Instead, a result of 91-110 pushes the spell to the Deliberate phase (and 76-90 to the next round).

[Faustized]

Thanks for answers, can someone give me some references ( pages on manuals , tables , etc etc...) on snap penality?

[Cory Magel]

I don't think there's a bonus for casting in the Deliberate phase.  Instead, a result of 91-110 pushes the spell to the Deliberate phase (and 76-90 to the next round).

Ah yes, I recall that discussion about the 110 being a deliberate phase success as they were assuming deliberate casting (hence a +10 bonus) in the calculation.  Never made sense to me, but I believe that you're right.

[larien]

This errata thread (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10602.msg134416#msg134416) implies that you get the +10 on deliberate casting, so why not the -20 on snap?  I'd like to get some clarity on this as out of the book, many of the Paladin "Holy Arms" spells are broken.  The lvl 1 spell gives +15, you get -10 on your attack for casting as well, then you have to count in either the penalties for casting with no free hands or likely take another penalty for drawing a weapon as well!  It's a bit better on ranged attacks, but still...

NB - I'm working under RM FRP rules, but the principles should apply to RMSS too...

[Kristen Mork]

The Paladin is well served by using a Shield spell (leaves one hand free).  Then, the Holy Attacks that provide a +(10+5xN) bonus have a net effect of +5xN.  There's no penalty for casting an Instantaneous spell in the Snap phase.  If the Paladin has no free hand, then the Holy Attacks are dangerous!

[frogsontoast]

In my copy of RMSS standard rules, the spell casting modifications table T-4.6 on page 194 says:

non-instaneous spell cast as a snap action: -20

I've never seen any reference to a +10 for deliberate spell casting statics.

[Cory Magel]

I think what you are seeing is that Instant Spells are an exception to the rule, meaning they do not get the -20.  Everything else is as normal, meaning a normal spell would get the normal +10 from Deliberate.  This is why spells "Succeed" at 110 instead of 100, the designers assume Deliberate casting.  (I think that's silly, but it seems that's how they set it up).

[larien]

I can't find anything to suggest that instantaneous spells can be cast in the snap phase without taking the -20 penalty (this is RM FRP FWIW).  From what I can find in the rules:
- RMFRP pg 40 says the following:

action is abstracted into a simple decision for each character
— Is the action:
A snap action? .................................... resolved earlier with
a -20 modification

- RMFRP page 41 reiterates the above - "A snap action receives a -20 modification"
- Pg 46 says that an instantaneous spell can be cast automatically in the snap phase if all other pre-requisites are met but doesn't mention exemption from the -20 snap penalty "The spell is not cast as a snap action (instantaneous spells are exempt)."
- Pg 47 gives the -20 for non-instantaneous spell cast in snap phase

None of this states that an instantaneous spell cast in the snap phase doesn't get the -20 penalty.  The SCSM table on page 47 implies that an  instantaneous spell doesn't get the -20 for a snap action, or you could read it as being a total of -40 to cast a non-instantaneous spell in the snap phase.
There are no direct comments regarding any spell casting as a deliberate action.

Now, the intention is pretty obvious that instantaneous spells should be cast in the snap phase as many of them affect actions later the same round (e.g. deflections).  However, with a spell skill bonus of +20 (optimistic at low levels in my experience), that gets negated by the snap penalty so you're at +25 off the SCSM modifications in the table (at most).  Success in RMFP is 61 (RMFRP uses different tables from RMSS), so you need to roll 36+ to get the spell to go off normally; a Near Success goes off at the end of the deliberate phase which is a bit pointless for a deflections spell.  A Partial success turns a 10% spellcasting activity into a 50% spellcasting activity the next round!

[yammahoper]

All spells cast as snap actions require a SCSM roll except for instantaneous spells.

The BAR table does not list phase bonuses/penalties as mods to attack rolls.

Only SCSM suffer a penalty when spell casting and only if cast as a snap action.

What you can't find is ANY mention of ANY spell recieving a modifier for the attack roll based on the phase it is cast in.  Only SCSM are modified by phase, and then only those cast in the snap phase.

A +10 for deliberate casting is a house rule, one I have no problem with.

The SCSM table suggest a partial success would grant a +5 to the subsequent attack roll, a near success a +10 and a success a +20, unless another related mnv is performed first (such as spell mastery or targeting).

[larien]

All spells cast as snap actions require a SCSM roll except for instantaneous spells.

Also instantaneous spells where other penalties apply (e.g. armour worn, >25% PP used, etc).  Note that even if armour penalties are negated by Transcend armour, a SCSM is still required.

The BAR table does not list phase bonuses/penalties as mods to attack rolls.

Possibly a noob question, but what's the BAR table?

Only SCSM suffer a penalty when spell casting and only if cast as a snap action.

What you can't find is ANY mention of ANY spell recieving a modifier for the attack roll based on the phase it is cast in.  Only SCSM are modified by phase, and then only those cast in the snap phase.

There's nothing to directly say that, but there are a list of "actions" which can be done, including attacking, making static/moving maneuvers or preparing/casting spells; thus, casting a spell is defined as an "action" in RM.  The rules state that an "action" in the snap phase has a -20 penalty.

A +10 for deliberate casting is a house rule, one I have no problem with.

Again, an "action" in the deliberate phase gets +10.

This is my reading of rules - by making spell casting an action, it's subject to the same penalties in the snap phase and the same bonuses in the deliberate phase.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I can't find anything in the rules to contradict these views.

[rdanhenry]

I think what you are seeing is that Instant Spells are an exception to the rule, meaning they do not get the -20.  Everything else is as normal, meaning a normal spell would get the normal +10 from Deliberate.  This is why spells "Succeed" at 110 instead of 100, the designers assume Deliberate casting.  (I think that's silly, but it seems that's how they set it up).

Yeah, I used to believe that the 110 was because of the +10 Deliberate, but that myth was exploded when I started going through my RM2 books again. 110 is straight off RM2 Alternative Static Action Tables. The only innovations in RMSS were the UM 66 and 100 results. 110 was balance to partial success chances for static maneuvers, I expect.

[yammahoper]

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I can't find anything in the rules to contradict these views.

You can't be wrong, you are the GM.  Inconsistant, like transcend armor, is another issue not addressed in this topic.

A BAR is a base attack roll, that table all spell casting uses unless it is a Directed or Ball attack.  After the SCSM is done, the attack is rolled on it.

[MariusH]

Spell casting is described on page 105 in the standard rules. Under "Automatic Spell Casting", it is stated that "If a spell is cast automatically, no static maneuver is required". Later, it is described what causes a spell to be cast automatically. I think in this case, the following case is what's interresting:

3) The spell is not cast as a snap action or if the spell is an instantaneous spell cast as a snap action

So, if you cast an instantaneous spell as a snap action, that spell is cast automatically (assuming no other penalties, like using armour, for instance). And for automatically cast spells, no SCSM is necessary. So there is no maneouver, and thus no maneouver to apply the -10 for snap action to.

A related question: Do you apply the "ordinary" penalties for static maneouvers to SCSMs? We do, but only if an SCSM is called for (so, having a penalty to static maneouvers does not force an SCSM, but if you DO have to make an SCSM, we apply the mods). The most interresting here is probably -20 for being in a "melee environment" and the -30 for being "in melee". So in such cases, and spells better be cast automatically.