Topic: Missile use in melee

[VladD]

There was the whole gamut of training possible for nobles: from book learning, to tutelage to apprenticing. Nobility was actually starting off as the warrior class in the barbarian tribes. During the reign of Pippin the Short, father of Charlemagne, they were rewarded with land and the peasant of that land, that they started to see themselves as nobility. So it was only natural to stay the martial class of society.

Commoners actually were taught some martial skills as well. As part of the levy (taxation collected as work or bounty) they were required to practice for probably one month out of every year, preferably during the winter months, or before planting.

Later in the medieval times, in England, there were laws imposing practice on free days (Sundays and holidays) to promote good archery. Also there were a lot of tournaments during those times, to get some rivalry going. Some of the laws were pretty strict; anyone over 22 practicing on a target closer than 200 meters would be executed!
In other parts of the world it was the 3rd+ sons that got drafted and drilled. In japan it was pretty common for women to get weapons training in naginata. They teach this "womanly" weapon in certain schools to young women in lieu of gymnastics even today.

Just my 2 cents of pitch(ing in)

[Cory Magel]

On that note, just consider how talented a mounted archer must be. By the rules (RMFRP), you have to spend %Act to control your mount, %Act to shoot the bow.. and the bow OB will be limited by your riding skill.

It's really not that hard.  If you're just riding in a fairly straightforward manner on fairly even ground (not dodging or jumping objects) you aren't trying to succeed in a difficult actual riding maneuver.  Missile weapons only take 60% activity to fire, so you can dedicate much less activity to the riding maneuver as a result and normally be fine... well, assuming you have any riding skill at all.  Most players in our game have at least a passable riding skill.

[Marc R]

Keep in mind the number of variables here, even assuming the two foes are melee range apart.


Real life:

Like if I have my bow strung, in hand, no arrow out, you have a sword at your waist, we go for it, good odds you'll draw and skewer me.

If you have your sword out, and I have an arrow out, but not pulled, odds still are that you'd skewer me, as the action of the draw takes about as much time as a swing, if not less.

My opinion:

You can choose to shoot someone in melee.

You either get zero parry, or if the GM allows it, some significantly reduced parry (like 2:1 reduction)

If you parry, the GM should make break factor or breakage checks, as missile weapons are not meant to be used for parry.

Much like firing on someone from 50' off, it's a very offensive action, with poor defense. . . you better hope you get initiative, and you better hope your shot takes down anyone aiming to go to school on you with a melee weapon. (Anyone making a melee attack who doesn't declare 100% OB melee vs a foe in melee range with a bow in his hands is likely being way overcautious).

I can indeed get the logic of how a sling is not going to work in a press of people, but it won't work on someone 50' off if you're hemmed in at launch point. . .no reason you couldn't use a sling on someone 5' away assuming you have the clear space around you for it, though if they have half a brain they'll foul your wind up (though the rules are kind of sketchy on how you'd do that)

As a GM I'd allow it, it's just very, very risky. . .and I allow my players to take as much rope as they want to hang themselves. . .it's also possible to fire a bow while dangling upside down from a rope tied around your ankle, but I wouldn't suggest making "Archer Pinata!" a standard go-to plan.

[Nortti]

jdale wrote:

RMSS/RMFRP do not give any bonus for "static target" for melee. (They do give a bonus for missiles against a static target however.) So, again, this would be making it easier to hit an archer than someone standing there doing nothing, or spellcasting.

Looks like this is where we handle combat differently. We use a hefty bonus for attacking a target that does not fight back, like +50 to +75 to OB. The archer in melee is still a combatant that tries to avoid blows, poses a threat and is not just standing waiting for the bus. Anyone can make a deadly strike against an opponent that is just standing there doing absolutely nothing. Even if you score 150 and cause an E-crit to a static target it doesnt make you a swordsmaster.

As I see it a roll is still required but bonus to OB is massive.

[providence13]

DB for me doesn't have to be using your bow to block a strike. You could, especially if your bow is magical; RR might apply based on hit damage with a bonus from crit letter vs Magic "level" of bow.

I stand by what I said, the ablity to "swing" a bow isn't the same as you being trained to shoot the bow. The way I see it, DB can also be staring an opponent down, dodging, faking an attack.. we are talking about 10 seconds of combat; I like 6 sec but it's the same premise.
With this in mind, archers don't stand around waiting for the bus.
Good one Nortti.

On the riding and shooting a bow..
Corey Magel makes a good point. I also forgot to mention any horse you're taking into battle is likely trained for combat and might give a bonus to riding maneuvers. But a superbly skilled rider might be able to do amazing maneuvers with a donkey and an open-ended roll. I don't know. Donkeys are sometimes used to shoo away dogs in cow pastures.. Hmmm, dwarven warhorse; it's really a donkey.

Although mounted missile combat doesn't come up often in our present party, spells do. The first time our Mage cast a Shockbolt from horseback it bucked him right off! I always tell them that 1 Rank in Riding is not enough..

[GrumpyOldFart]

I stand by what I said, the ablity to "swing" a bow isn't the same as you being trained to shoot the bow.

In another thread the question was whether GMs allow archers to parry with their bows when someone successfully closes to melee range with them. My answer: "Sure, no problem. What's your skill in left-handed club?"

The first time our Mage cast a Shockbolt from horseback it bucked him right off! I always tell them that 1 Rank in Riding is not enough.

One of the more fun things to do to relatively new players for me is allow them to forget (until it goes off) that a "lightning bolt" also means a "thunderclap". And you can pretty safely assume that your livestock is, at best, unhappy with you every time you cast one.

 

[JimiSue]

On mounted archery - I've seen the Mythbusters have a go at this. Unsurprisingly, they found it difficult. However, the people they saw who practised it were much better. Part of the problem is that even when you're using a short bow, you are likely going to need to stand up some in the stirrups so your knees can damp the motion somewhat. You'd also need to practice with a specific mount so your aiming can take this into account and compensate for its movement. You will need therefore to be able to control the horse from a half standing position while not concentrating on where you're going and with no reins to assist, and no saddle to help stop you falling off, shooting a probably moving target while you are also moving... it's all starting to look quite tricky.

On unmounted archery - there's no reason why an arrow cannot kill someone in close. After all, the moment it leaves the bow is when it has the maximum possible forward motion. The type of bow will dictate how that force is reached - a standard recurve applies fairly even acceleration, but a composite bow increases from an easy hold at full draw to some very punishing pull weights ajust before release. If using it in melee I don't think you'd really want to aim the conventional way, but then with the target much closer in you wouldn't have to do much more than pull it and release in the general direction of the opponent.

It is also possible that a bow may be built for some melee action, using it as a club or reinforced by some metal inlay to assist in a (desperate) parry. But I still think it's a situation to avoid. This is one thing I think D20 has right in its otherwise broken attack of opportunity - someone uses a bow next to you, you get a free bonus attack on them.

And someone mentioned early in this thread about the LotR films and Legolas using a bow in melee - but what he did was kill the nasties so that he was never actually in melee when he fired - the incident where Boromir dies there is a moment where he uses his arrow as a hand held weapon to stab an Uruk-Hai in the eye before stringing it and killing another nasty further away. So even he knew not to use one when being charged