Topic: Rolemaster Lite

[intothatdarkness]

The second alternative is to base the game on some IP that is well recognized and are in the public domain. Robin Hood, The knights of the Round table, Norse Mythology, Greece Mythology or One Thousand and One Nights all probably has enough recognition but there are of course more to choose from if you really think about it. There is of course a gap between these classic IPs and RM, but perhaps this is not such a big deal. Alternate fiction that the real world and insert fantasy elements is pretty big these days and if you are open with that ICE is not aiming to recreate somebody else version of the tales but are building some unique fantasy style then I think there is possibility for a happy marriage.

I think this was tried with the Campaign Classics line. Not sure how they sold, though. Some were really good (I like the Norse one especially, but the Pirate one and Outlaw were both also pretty good).

[ironmaul]

My idea for an easier game:
1) Fixed DP
2) set skill gains with limited DP expenditures
3) no auto skill gains (ie level bonuses to skills +2/Level to skill)


Why
1) Do not have to figure math for stats to DP's
2) reduce time on PC creation if you get a block of skills and then a small amount to customize your PC.
3) just go with stat or stats and skill rank = bonus. IMHO it reduces the math and cuts out a step the can be added back in during an advanced game.


The above keeps combat, RMSS style spell acquisition, and game resolution in full. It cuts down on PC gen time and math but it does have the limitations in that the skill packages have to be designed before hand, there needs to be a number of packages to represent a number of options for each profession and it is different from RM now.


MDC

This is pretty much what I already have on paper atm.
Regarding skill development, I have chosen three levels of skill purchase. Common skills cost 2/3, Uncommon cost 3/5 and Rare sklls cost 5/8. This way I can cusomize it to any game world I chose and also a way to throttle back for a poor/low magic scene. It also allows for easy traning pakages too.

So far, what I have takes little time to make up a characters primary attributes. A little math is involved but nothing out of the ordinary from my POV. I have yet to playtest this with others which I hope to do soon...I want to see if my system/alterations are easily followed.

[ironmaul]

I think RM lite if it should exist need a setting that don't require so much explanation. Shadow World is some senses brilliant, but it is also a setting that has zero weight outside the SW cycles and there are simply a massive number of ways that a skeptic customer can decide "sounds mostly good, but all this talk is turning boring I do something else".

Agreed, and very probmatic for expanding sales.

One alternative is trying to tap into some well known setting that has great brand recognition, like Game of Thrones. Problem is that if it is popular then ICE is too small fish to catch it, and if it is not popular then there is not much point really. Predicting if a setting will become a hit is difficult at best.

There are always old movie favourites that are in the future pipeline coming in. But it's like a "who you know", than "what you know", these days that will get a foot in the door. But the major advantage of having an IP license is it also draws in the non-gamers, collectors and zelot fans to sales. IF an appropriate IP was obtained then one could use that as a spin off marketing tool for other products.

[Marc R]

With a very few exceptions, all of my most memorable gaming experiences have taken place in home brew settings.

[markc]

My idea for an easier game:
1) Fixed DP
2) set skill gains with limited DP expenditures
3) no auto skill gains (ie level bonuses to skills +2/Level to skill)


Why
1) Do not have to figure math for stats to DP's
2) reduce time on PC creation if you get a block of skills and then a small amount to customize your PC.
3) just go with stat or stats and skill rank = bonus. IMHO it reduces the math and cuts out a step the can be added back in during an advanced game.


The above keeps combat, RMSS style spell acquisition, and game resolution in full. It cuts down on PC gen time and math but it does have the limitations in that the skill packages have to be designed before hand, there needs to be a number of packages to represent a number of options for each profession and it is different from RM now.


MDC

This is pretty much what I already have on paper atm.
Regarding skill development, I have chosen three levels of skill purchase. Common skills cost 2/3, Uncommon cost 3/5 and Rare sklls cost 5/8. This way I can cusomize it to any game world I chose and also a way to throttle back for a poor/low magic scene. It also allows for easy traning pakages too.

So far, what I have takes little time to make up a characters primary attributes. A little math is involved but nothing out of the ordinary from my POV. I have yet to playtest this with others which I hope to do soon...I want to see if my system/alterations are easily followed.

 I hope your play test goes well and be sure to let tPtB know how it goes as it might be something they want to pursue.
MDC

[ironmaul]

With a very few exceptions, all of my most memorable gaming experiences have taken place in home brew settings.

That's where ICE/GPC could hit it lucky. If there was authors that could write such settings than you have a foundation to attach a system too. So far there is only two...Shadow World and Cyradon, not much for the fractured audience out there.

[ironmaul]

I hope your play test goes well and be sure to let tPtB know how it goes as it might be something they want to pursue.
MDC

That's something I haven't ruled out

[Marc R]

That's where ICE/GPC could hit it lucky. If there was authors that could write such settings than you have a foundation to attach a system too. So far there is only two...Shadow World and Cyradon, not much for the fractured audience out there.

I dunno, most GMs I know mine official setting materials, or apply adventure instances to their game worlds but modify some details to fit in, but they don't use an official world at all. . .in other words I'm not sure how much it matters if ICE sells licensed "Conan" or "Game of Thrones" material vs a house world like "Shadow World" or "Cyradon", most GMs I know are playing in "Joe's world" anyway.

I do know a few people who buy gaming materials simply to follow a gameworld, but I don't think hordes of people were so loyal to the Conan brand that they left GURPS to go play the Mongoose game, I think that people tend to be more loyal to the game system than to the game world. A lot of the gameworld brand loyalists seem to be more about collecting perfect collections of the materials than actually using them.

Licencing deals like that may draw in attention or new blood, but it's rare for one to totally make or save a game company in what I've ever seen. It's the game that tends to make or break the game, not the fact the official setting is "Conan".

[ironmaul]

You make a pretty good argument there Marc, so it's back to selling the system with hardcore in your face criticals And to do this you need a convention friendly intro pack with bells, whistles and dice! well maybe not the bells and whistles

[ironmaul]

Anyway, back to some of my thoughts. I've been thinking of useing DP's as instead of XP. A set number is decided and they are handed out during game play that can only be spent after a scenario. I already have an idea on how to determine total DP handout per level.

Also, a round is a given amount of time 10secs? or 2secs? what is best? Well I thought why not both, have an active round(2 secs) and a passive round(10secs), does that makes sense?

This is starting to be a hybrid system I guess, so I should forget it being a lite intro to RM.

[Marc R]

I've been using DP as XP for a while, you level up at every increment of DP. (i.e. if it's 40 DP/level, you go up levels at 40/80/120/etc) and you are one level ahead of where common sense would put you. i.e. if 3rd level, including 0 level, is 4 levels, you might think it's 160-199 DP, but actually it's 120-159, since in the current system you spend all those DP the moment you hit a level, so "3rd level done" is the 160 point, not "third level starting" at the 160 point.

Level is needed just to resolve costs so if you're paying X/Y for a skill, if you purchase 1 rank at X, you have to wait to level up to purchase another rank at X, if you purchase another rank without waiting for level up, you pay Y.

It's a bit more bookeeping intensive, since you essentially have to do a mini level up after each session, and some players seem to prefer just spending it all in one chunk rather than having to fiddle around with spending (or choosing to save for something big) 5 or less DP at a time, so it's not 100% upside.

[Cory Magel]

Also, a round is a given amount of time 10secs? or 2secs? what is best? Well I thought why not both, have an active round(2 secs) and a passive round(10secs), does that makes sense?

A round is currently setup (and therefore balanced) to be 10 seconds. You can change that obviously if you want (I've heard of people using a six second round), just keep in mind it will alter the balance of some things, spell durations being the most obvious one.

[ironmaul]

Marc, I'm totally %100 with you on that. I find this method simple and more realistic.

Cory, I see where your coming from and will have to think about it more in regard for spell casting/duration etc. At the moment I'm concentrating on non-spell casting characters. I do have notes on an alternate spell system but that can wait for now.

I'm going to hunt through the archives during the RM revision discussion and see what interesting notes I can find. I think I left the forums around that time so I missed alot.

Thanks for your imput guys, does mean alot.

[jdale]

Class changes in RM are problematic because you can easily abuse them.

Eeeeerrrrr.....shreeeeeccchh, CRASH! Nope. I don't buy this, not one bit, and never had. This argument that just because it is a rule book makes it sacrosanct is in correct. It is impossible to abuse a game. IMPOSSIBLE. If the GM allows it, it isn't abusive, it is allowed. If the GM doesn't, then no amount of grabbing up a rule book and pointing to a page and saying, "blah-blah-blah-rule-blah-page-blah-blah" is going to change the fact. The GM, by virtue of spending hours and hours working on the game, has overall control of such matters, and if he says not only can you be 2 professions, but you can take the best cost of those 2 professions and add the professional bonuses, etc... it is OK and not abuse. The fact that anyone at the table (if you have a table to play on, I currently don't) can geet up an leave, means there is no abuse going on.

I have a friend, and he is phenomenal at finding all the little things of a game to break it, and make the uber character (or the totally un-uber character). Now if he does that, and I let him, then all is OK in game land.

This mostly works, if the GM is skilled and understands the game at least as well as the player. If the player understands how the system works better than the GM, the GM can be taken advantage of.

The principle concern, though, is not the power level per se or surprising the GM with your mightiness. The principle concern is if one character obtains advantages that let them hog the story. If they are too much better at too many things, leaving other characters too little to do. Again, this is a concern that a skilled GM can handle. And if you feel up to it and want to introduce unbalancing house rules, sure. But a system needs to be written to help a less experienced GM.

[ironmaul]

@ Marc, do you use the option of fixed DP per level for players characters?
I was thinking of the stat DP bonus per level for players wanting to customize a PC of their own(perhaps after a sample game or two). I would use the fixed DP per level creating NPC's, less hassle IMO. For players own PC I'd just see if they would spend the 20DP on stat gain, then calculate that for a guide to how much DP they get up to the next level of course they can't purchase anymore for stats. I hate typing my ideas out, easy to get people confused.

[Marc R]

I think DP as XP tends to need fixed DP, as otherwise you get caught between a rock and a hard place.

The rock is if you reward play with an even hand i.e. "Your play today was worth 5 DP" then it's actually to the player's advantage to dump all DP generating stats. If my stats give me 30 DP/level and your stats give you 45 per level, then I'm going to cycle my levels 33% faster than you are. If we both reach 450 DP at the same time, I'll be 14th level while you're 9th. It creates a perverse benefit where the worse your stats are the faster you progress.

The hard place is trying to avoid that rock you find yourself as GM having to bias reward, like using the same stat examples as above, we both do equally well in the same session, the GM gives you 6 DP, and me 4 DP. . .which creates a hassle for the GM to remember to bias rewards and by how much, and can create resentment and strife among the players.

[Cory Magel]

Cory, I see where your coming from and will have to think about it more in regard for spell casting/duration etc. At the moment I'm concentrating on non-spell casting characters. I do have notes on an alternate spell system but that can wait for now.

It's a little messy too...  you can't just assume spell power will become more or less powerful across the board.  Overall it's not a HUGE problem... but once in a while you'll find a situation where it can be.

For example, if you make rounds shorter in timed length (say, six seconds instead of ten) most spells that have a true "timed" duration (i.e. 1min/lvl) will become more powerful when using a shorter round.  A 1min/level spell cast by a 5th level caster will last 50 rounds in a six second round campaign, while they would only last 30 rounds in a ten second campaign.  However, will a combat ever last long enough for this to become an issue?  Also, will the characters have multiple combats in quick succession so that this spell might actually last long enough to impact near future combats?

Now think about spells that have a number of "rounds" for duration... or instant spells... and how semi's might use spells that impact their combat effectiveness... etc.

[Marc R]

A good demonstration of Cory's point can be found in comparing RM to HARP in terms of buff spells. A duration of 1 round/level for a 10th level caster in RM is going to last 1 minute 40 sec, while in HARP it lasts 20 sec. . .either is of equal utility in combat lasting 10 rounds, but the RM spell is far easier to cast off in safety, then walk into the fight, than the HARP spell, making it a lot easier to do something like "OK, out here in the woods the cleric casts a blessing on us, then we come out of the woods and attack the goblins." . . .in HARP 50% or more of the spell will have worn off before combat starts, while in RM 10-20% will have worn off.

[ironmaul]

Marc, I see your pionts with fixed DP...you make sense if I followed you right. Is there any preference to the amount of DP per level? I had 100 DP for first level and 50 DP for each level afterwards, should I stick with that or go less? I guess the less the number the quicker the level up but having a flat DP handout to all players it wouldn't really matter. This concept is new for me.

I had thought about the implications of combat with a 2 second round. It makes it even more deadlier with the bleeds per round on the crit tables...ouch!
I've thought about having a 3 second round. With this you could impliment the snap/normal/deliberate mechanic if desired. But still makes combat bleeds really deadly.

The thing I have always found ridiculous is the duration/level mechanic in RM and in HARP. I hate power/potency link to actual level/ranks, it should be link to PP expenditure.
I have to clarify in my earlier post, I don't have a spell system... rather a spell creation system. And much simpler than found in CoM. I dug it out of storage last night to go over it again. It could be used with any system that uses a Power Point mechanic and it is also scaleable. All I need to do is write up some more spells and playtest them.

[ironmaul]

Actually I've just found an archived thread with you guys discussing rounds...interesting read.