Author Topic: Rolemaster Lite  (Read 17045 times)

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Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2012, 08:27:11 PM »
My attempt is to produce something along the lines of "Run Out the Runs" but perhaps in a barbarian/Conan like theme.

Now that would be a messy campaign.  ;D  :o

rmfr
That it would! My intentions are to highlight the critical tables and the graphic nature of them. Also I want to show character diversity even if I only choose three professions and human race only.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2012, 08:58:09 PM »
I personally feel that a lot of this thread has been focusing on the wrong area. Someone above posted (I think Moriarty) that if you remove races or professions, that is only reducing choice and detail, not making the game any easier. From my experience new players *like* choice and detail, but where the headache comes in is figuring out the math. When I advise players to come to the game with a calculator, I'm not kidding.
Cory, on the first page of this topic makes a good point about the time players make up there mind. The idea is to have a focus, to have a taste of what RM is like. Too much diversity will not make it a streamline experience. The details come in later with a full blown RM lite. Remember this is an introductory game like ROtG. I want to have the basics first the rest can come later.

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The trend with new games these days is for very rules light systems (e.g. 2 stats - physical, and mental; a handful of generic skills or spells; etc) so presenting hefty mechanics first day off is probably not going to win you many favours. I would:

1) Keep races and professions, talents and so on - players like all of that and it isn't very rules heavy
I'd only keep the bare minimum of professions...fighter, thief rouge, cleric and magic user. Races are world specific, better to have simple guidelines to make your own races IMO. All the ten stats will stay, this is a RM holy cow.
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2) ditch temporary & potential stats, but keep some mechanism to allow them to increase at level up time
Agreed. I have it so you increase your stats with DP like in HARP. I feel this would work well.

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3) Slim down the skills list, including weapons. MERP worked very well at the level of having a 1H slashing skill, for example. The skills is where having a choice becomes intimidating, you don't need an enormous skills list to have a functional character.
Agreed.

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4) Do something to the point buy skills scheme. I don't know how many times I have to explain that to new players, but you could keep choice and variety by having skills groups (e.g. combat, social, magical etc) and have each profession have a skill cost that applies to all skills in that category, so fighters would have 1 in combat skills, rogues might have 3, wizards would have 5, and so on. Spend double that amount for a second rank or something.
I think the standard system is fine, perhaps it's the explaining that needs to be clearer with examples.
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5) Simplify the mechanics for calculating skill totals. It is enough to have a skill bonus, stat bonus, 'special' bonus, and  profession bonus (and even that last one is dubious as it can be reflected in skill cost). You don't need to worry about skill caps, or diminishing returns - at low levels the game functions perfectly well without them.
Agreed. Just two stat bonuses plus rank bonus and your roll, simple.

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6) get away from the huge amount of chart lookup in combat. You can develop some simple calculation to determine success (e.g. hits = the amount you exceed opponent DB by, divided by Armour Type; crits = amount exceeded minus 50, divided by 5, negative = no crit, 1-10 = A, 11-20 = B, etc - note those figures are pulled from the air, no idea if they would actually work).
Hehe, that sounds even more complex than a chart look up  :D Just a few charts is needed for a normal combat if there is not an overwhelming of weapon types etc.
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7) Critcally important (pun intended) is keeping detailed criticals - new players absolutely love them, since most games do abstracted damage it makes a nice change. And gamers (even the proto-gamers we are talking about here) love that detail.
Totally agree with this and is the main focus.

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To engage interest from players used to simple, fast-flowing systems, you have to create a system that is simple and fast-flowing (really!). It helps if character creation is also fast but that isn't as important - what's important in character creation is that the time is focused on the actual character, not the numbers that make it work.
Totally agree with this.

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Also remember that gaming is an activity that usually appeals to a certain type of individual - imaginitive and above-averagely intelligent (yes, I know there are exceptions :) ) so don't be too afraid of providing choice and colour, as that will be appreciated.  If you can hook them into an easier system early on, then they will see it as a personal achievement to 'graduate' onto the more complex full version - much as, back in the day, we progressed from D&D to AD&D.
Also agree.

Offline markc

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2012, 10:03:34 PM »
 I would have auto skill gains and a limited number or DP.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2012, 01:19:11 AM »
Something that might be useful is an entirely pre-prepped combat scenario.  Hand out a pre-made character to each player and have a set of foes (which will vary based on the number of player characters).

The reason I say this is because one of the first things we did when we decided to try out the RM line as a full fledged system (we'd been using pieces in D&D for years) was to run a 'mock' combat.  This taught us a LOT about the system.  Everything from how skills develop and are used, to all the various combat stuff, to the fact that a certain creature in D&D was NOTHING like the same creature in RM (Trolls for example).

I ran a chariot racing event at GenCon many years ago that used RM.  Only one of the players (out of 10 I think?) realized we were using RM.  I handed out a set of pre-created characters for them to choose from, let them select their own chariot type (I think I had five) and quickly explained how their skills worked and how attack resolution played out.  Considering they really only needed to know their charioteering skill, offensive and defensive numbers it seemed very simple to them.  Once a player learns that kind of thing, see's how simple it is, THEN learns they were playing Rolemaster they tend to open their eyes a bit.
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Offline JimiSue

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2012, 01:54:22 AM »
I'm not a big fan of pre-mades for novice players. If the players can create their own character they can identify with it far better. Pre-mades are fine for quick-starting more experienced roleplayers who can more easily drop into the character, but for those without experience that's not so easy. Sometimes you can drop players into play too quickly - and while character customisation does take some time, it gives them more time to get comfortable with their character and role.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2012, 02:16:42 AM »
About professions, you’ll actually have more choice if you simply drop them and use a skill based character creation. Why ? Because professions tend to set a character on rails. Of course, even with professions, Rolemaster allow for an outstanding variety, but a fighter won’t be able to switch to becoming a priest or thief, something you can do in a snap of your fingers with Warhammer 1 or 2 or Rêve de dragon (which was translated as Rêve: the Dream Ouroboros but I don’t own it and thus don’t know if the translation is faithful to the original), a game that beats any game I know of in terms of diversity with a system so light that character creation holds on 12 pages (of course the game also has shortcomings).

To sum it up, when it comes to character creation and diversity, Warhammer does better than Rolemaster with a system that is lighter but also flawed (it’s easy to be outrageously overpowered in this game) and eats a lot of paper to run.
Rêve does far better (you basically can’t beat it in diversity) with a system that is ultra light, doesn’t have loopholes that allow overpowered characters and holds on far less pages than RM.

My point:

1) create a professionless system that relies on skill selection and progression (all the skills won’t have the same chance to gain rank).
2) since many people won’t know how to use it, create archetypes for character creation that will help people make up their minds.
3) limit the access to magic with talents, (flaws disappear, each talent comes with a drawback)
4) give guidelines about how to create a new archetype, give other ones to just do without them.

You’ll look like you keep professions while getting even more character diversity and, on top of that, give the long, long awaited guidelines to create character professions. All that in a lighter system.

Seriously, I’ve been reading complaints about DP, the number of professions, their balance and so on for years. If DPs are a problem, drop them and do something else. If you can’t create another great type of character without creating a profession, then they are an hindrance, not an asset, because players don’t have the keys to professions and can’t even jump from one to another.

I'm not a big fan of pre-mades for novice players. If the players can create their own character they can identify with it far better. Pre-mades are fine for quick-starting more experienced roleplayers who can more easily drop into the character, but for those without experience that's not so easy. Sometimes you can drop players into play too quickly - and while character customisation does take some time, it gives them more time to get comfortable with their character and role.

I don’t agree. I rule games for complete beginners in a ludothèque (it’s like a public library, but with tons of games and no books) in Bordeaux and pre-made characters are great for newcomers. If I had to create characters, it’d take the whole night.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2012, 04:44:46 AM »

My point:

1) create a professionless system that relies on skill selection and progression (all the skills won’t have the same chance to gain rank).
2) since many people won’t know how to use it, create archetypes for character creation that will help people make up their minds.
3) limit the access to magic with talents, (flaws disappear, each talent comes with a drawback)
4) give guidelines about how to create a new archetype, give other ones to just do without them.

You’ll look like you keep professions while getting even more character diversity and, on top of that, give the long, long awaited guidelines to create character professions. All that in a lighter system.

Seriously, I’ve been reading complaints about DP, the number of professions, their balance and so on for years. If DPs are a problem, drop them and do something else. If you can’t create another great type of character without creating a profession, then they are an hindrance, not an asset, because players don’t have the keys to professions and can’t even jump from one to another.
Funny you should mention this, I was actually thinking the same thing at work today. It's the skills that actually define the profession, not the other way round. Your points are valid Fenrhyl, and I will seriously look into it, I'm very pleased you mentioned it.

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I'm not a big fan of pre-mades for novice players. If the players can create their own character they can identify with it far better. Pre-mades are fine for quick-starting more experienced roleplayers who can more easily drop into the character, but for those without experience that's not so easy. Sometimes you can drop players into play too quickly - and while character customisation does take some time, it gives them more time to get comfortable with their character and role.

I don’t agree. I rule games for complete beginners in a ludothèque (it’s like a public library, but with tons of games and no books) in Bordeaux and pre-made characters are great for newcomers. If I had to create characters, it’d take the whole night.
Same here. My first experience with RM was rolling up characters...and it did in fact take ALL night!!! we didn't even get to have a game. :-\

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2012, 05:07:18 AM »
If RM is going to continue with a % activity based round; make sure all actions are in increments of 10%.  WTF do you do with 5%?
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Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2012, 05:29:46 AM »
Thoughts on initiative.

I've used this with RMSS and seemed to work well,
Qu bonus + In bonus + 1 per two levels aqcuired + 1d10.

Do you think useing the Snap/Normal/Deliberate phase would cause much issue?
I like it because it allows the slower PC's to be able to jump in first if they wish. I thought that this would be confusing for my players at the begining but they seemed to catch on fast when I gave a few gladitoral mock battles with this mechanic.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2012, 05:37:34 AM »
If RM is going to continue with a % activity based round; make sure all actions are in increments of 10%.  WTF do you do with 5%?
Agreed. I think you could leave this out of a lite version of RM. Alternatly one could do a quick and simple roll off vs the GM i.e roll higher than him and you get what you wanted done(all within reason of course). I guess each situation is different so it would be a case by case event.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2012, 09:04:21 AM »
Actually changing professions (or progressing through careers) in Warhammer isn't just "snapping your fingers." It's a long-term process if you're doing it according to the original GW rules, and not everyone can do everything.

From what I've seen, most of the confusion and complexity comes when people start adding everything in the various Companions into RMC without taking the time to determine what works in their world and what doesn't. I do use archetypes in a way, but they're determined by a mix of profession and the culture a character comes from. And to me that gets to the heart of one issue with RM...it doesn't have a solid world/setting basis. With nothing to tie the rules to, they become more shifting and open to complication, especially as stuff from the Companions (which tends to come from the settings of various GMs) flows into games that aren't suited for those additions.

I've played a few of the non-profession style games, and my experience has been that characters tend to end up scattered and diluted as players try to do everything with one character. Granted everyone has their own experiences with that sort of system...mine wasn't good. And don't get me started on the strange pile of skills and such that makes up Spycraft.

My groups have never had a problem with stat generation or DPs. I overhauled the RM Professions and skills to balance better in my setting, and no one had problems. It should be easy to come up with a lite RM, but IMO it needs to be tied to a setting of some sort. There needs to be a framework, a logic for how things work the way they do. That makes it easier for players to understand and buy into the rules.
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Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2012, 10:08:15 AM »
've played a few of the non-profession style games, and my experience has been that characters tend to end up scattered and diluted as players try to do everything with one character. Granted everyone has their own experiences with that sort of system...mine wasn't good. And don't get me started on the strange pile of skills and such that makes up Spycraft.

It happens, but not because the system is flawed, but because the players develop their character in a poor way. It’s up to the GM to give them guidelines.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2012, 11:31:15 AM »
About professions, you’ll actually have more choice if you simply drop them and use a skill based character creation. Why ? Because professions tend to set a character on rails.

Actually I would say that is exactly the point with professions. They give the player rails so that you get a better gaming experience when different characters fulfill different purposes in the gaming group. The point with RM is that is rails, but the rails are only guidelines unless you try do munchkin stuff like changing from fighter to mage. It is weird that people always insist they should get the best of both worlds and get upset...

If the argument is that a good GM can direct the players to develop a working gaming group despite not having any rules that support this then I would counter with suggesting that if the GM is good there is no reason to use a set of fixed rules to begin with. People who find it so easy to create a balanced game experience would be much better off using a Narrativist game system and not try to dumb down a Simulationist game until it is light.

Seriously, I’ve been reading complaints about DP, the number of professions, their balance and so on for years. If DPs are a problem, drop them and do something else. If you can’t create another great type of character without creating a profession, then they are an hindrance, not an asset, because players don’t have the keys to professions and can’t even jump from one to another.

Why should they want to jump from one to another? In what way is gaming experience made better if the fighter can switch to magican? Why would not every character make this transition if it is allowed?

Also I have a little problem understanding of why professions would be obstacle. The hard work with creating new professions is entirely in the creation of the spells. When the spells are done you have a realm and the differences between semis or pures from within a realm is pretty insignificant. 

To complete the circle...suppose you are a good GM with mature players that like Narrativist style gaming so much so that they don't mind if one of the players get very much better benefits than the others....nothing stops you from using your eraser mark to change the name of the profession without any hard rules about it. Further nothing stops you from saying "okay, you want to play pirate ninja that can fly. In that case, let me just write up some suiting cost then you can go on." There is nothing wrong with Narrativist gaming and from time to time and enjoy it lots...but RM or any Simulationist heavy game makes a horrible starting point to get Narrativist gaming.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2012, 12:00:48 PM »
Now where have I heard this before?
1) create a professionless system that relies on skill selection and progression (all the skills won’t have the same chance to gain rank).
Funny you should mention this, I was actually thinking the same thing at work today. It's the skills that actually define the profession, not the other way round. Your points are valid Fenrhyl, and I will seriously look into it, I'm very pleased you mentioned it.
Oh yeah, here:
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Reply #2 on: January 03, 2010, 11:08:09 pm »

The number of skills is due to the ideology that you must actively train in and increase each skill that makes up a profession, instead of just going up in level and automatically getting better at those skills. I understand this philosophy, and mostly agree with it - so long as you go with a profession-less & level-less system. No reason to go halfway, in my opinion. If you are going to have professions and levels, you might as well have a number of abilities that automatically increase with them, particularly those abilities that are key to that profession. For the sake of convenience as well as to better dictate what it means to be a (blank) in your setting/game. As for a game with an abundance of skills that must be individually increased, you might as well go with no profs or levels and just say that the character's "profession" is determined by the skills he possesses. Example: I spend over half of my XP on combat related skills and abilities, therefore I am a "fighter." You spend them on stealth and burglary skills and abilities, therefore you are a "thief."
;D

Funny thing is, I sort of understand and agree with the use of levels as a way of dealing with those things that aren't trained, but learned only through experience. Example: the combat boot (new guy) is generally much slower to react when stuff happens than the guy who has been through several battles/situations. That is one way level affects a character's performance, Initiative/Reaction, in this case. RRs are another aspect of a character where a sill generally not only doesn't, but cannot be used in the place of a level/attribute combination. (Though HARP has tried.)

But, if you are going with a game that focuses on skills, then classes and levels aren't necessary, and those things that come with experience will have to be attained through spending experience. What skills and abilities the character has will determine if they are a fighter, wizard, thief, arceologist, chef, police officer, etc.... Training packages will help in this regard.

But, for ease of getting new people into the game, I would suggest levels/professions, but with more aspects being "fixed" - though not quite as many as D&D. Hands down, it is easier to look in a book and see what you have, than it is to look in a book and pick-and-choose what you have.

Also, I am a big believer in pre-made one-shots to get new players acclimated to the rules and ideas of character types. I just did for the AD&D game I am running and I think it helped shake out several bugs (for me, as well).

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Offline pastaav

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2012, 12:02:16 PM »
Personally I think the goal of any RM Lite system must not be to reduce choice, but remove blind choices. Taking a Simulationist game and remove the full range of options simply means that you have same mechanical upkeep as before but less in return for suffering from the mechanics upkeep.

What I mean with blind choices is that RM is hard for a newbie because you must make choices without knowing if you can compensate for them further down the character creation process. If I want to be an good archer does that mean I must optimize my stat allocation to fit the classical archer stereotype? Must I take talents that aid archery or are skills enough? Is it necessary to max my archery skill during adolescent development or am I better off to spread out at this point? Is there a training package that will deduce my total cost to become a good archer so I get more opportunity to spread out or will the training packages force me to spread out in the wrong direction compared to my available DP?

With enough experience all the previous questions are reasonably simple to answer, but there is no way to make up for lack experience with current incarnations of RM. The root of it is that stacks of feats and prestige classes that exist in a certain other game is horribly more complex than RM with every possible options added, but complexity is secondary to presentation. What differs is that RM fail to give the players building blocks that are explained in terms of their gaming impact. The idea to say "it is hard but read books enough times and then you will get it and realize it is easy" only works in the audience of would be game designers. You get the reputation RM has when you make that kind of bad choices about presentation.

All in all I think the proper way to design a better RM is not to simplify by removing choices but to apply all lessons learned from designing UI for computer programs. Easy to learn games are not easy because they are less complex, but because the developer didn't leave it up to chance to make sure the user experience was good. 

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2012, 12:39:40 PM »
Anyway, I see 2 different idea happening here:

1) Streamlining Rolemaster: I can see the appeal here and would love to see how you all go about it. (So I can take it for my own, muaahahahahahahhaha....) But, I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with:

2) Enticing new Players: For the most part, I feel there are 2 main areas to deal with here:

     A. Disuading preconceptions: These are the "chartmaster" and other negative ideas that existing gamers have for
         RM. The only way to do this, I believe is to show them - but getting them to sit down and play it the first time is the
         thing. But, the sheer plethora of skills is something altogether different, and a much more understandable objection (IMO).
         This can only be handled by reworking/cutting back on the number of skills. I do agree, also, that RM can cut back on the
         number of charts, we really don't need multiple 1-handed edged weapon charts; just the one with with mods for the actual
         weapon used.

     B. The new gamers: Well, fundamentally, the newer batch of gamers seem to be all about story control. They want their
         characters to have some control over the story, more than what us old-schoolers are used to anyway. Some of that can be
         dealt with by the GM, but some of it they want "hard-wired" into the rules so they (the players) can more easily determine
         "how" they can affect the storyline. Personally, I feel that the GM has overall control of the story by virtue of the fact that
          they are the ones spending hours putting things together. More work equals more control, in my book.

PS: Actually there are 3:

     C. Make the game look good and then get the game out there! By look good, I mean when you see it on the shelf it practically
         makes you pick it up to look at*. The more that pick it up, the more that buy it, it is a simple as that. By get the game out there,
         I mean: GET THE GAME OUT THERE, and into stores, on Amazon, etc... If people have to search hard to find it, the less it will sell.
         Again, simple. (Yes, I understand there have been financial problems, I am just saying that when you get through them and are
         ready to start putting product out there, you need to put product out there.)


*Like the Shadow World Player's Guide and the HARP products put out recently.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 12:47:07 PM by RandalThor »
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Offline JimiSue

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2012, 12:59:30 PM »
Quote
I'm not a big fan of pre-mades for novice players. If the players can create their own character they can identify with it far better. Pre-mades are fine for quick-starting more experienced roleplayers who can more easily drop into the character, but for those without experience that's not so easy. Sometimes you can drop players into play too quickly - and while character customisation does take some time, it gives them more time to get comfortable with their character and role.

I don’t agree. I rule games for complete beginners in a ludothèque (it’s like a public library, but with tons of games and no books) in Bordeaux and pre-made characters are great for newcomers. If I had to create characters, it’d take the whole night.
Same here. My first experience with RM was rolling up characters...and it did in fact take ALL night!!! we didn't even get to have a game. :-\
Well, OF COURSE it takes all bloody night if you're doing Rolemaster characters. I thought the whole point here was creating a light version? However, it seems you're looking to essentially change pretty much everything about Rolemaster... and when you change everything about something... it ends up nothing like the original. You need to strike a balance between  what you're changing and what you're keeping. Aside from the critical tables and 10 stats in number, I can't really see a whole lot you're keeping. And crit tables and having the right number of stats is not the basis for a game. You're not creating "Rolemaster Lite" here, you're creating "A whole new system based on replacing anything slightly clunky about RoleMaster". Which can also be seen as just cherry-picking the best bits.

I can imagine players being introduced on this "lite" system and then wanting to try the big version, only to be stuck thinking "hang on, this is a completely different game." Which means you'll have not succeeded at all in your original goal of making RM more accessible. Don't get me wrong, there are some cool ideas in this thread, I just think that you shouldn't be trying to use absolutely all of them in one go.

But, good luck with it :)

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2012, 02:13:37 PM »
've played a few of the non-profession style games, and my experience has been that characters tend to end up scattered and diluted as players try to do everything with one character. Granted everyone has their own experiences with that sort of system...mine wasn't good. And don't get me started on the strange pile of skills and such that makes up Spycraft.

It happens, but not because the system is flawed, but because the players develop their character in a poor way. It’s up to the GM to give them guidelines.

And this same position applies to a standard RM character. Frankly, I'd prefer it if the system worked to minimize those poor choices. Not every GM is going to be good at guiding players, after all...
Darn that salt pork!

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2012, 02:37:26 PM »
Quote
I'm not a big fan of pre-mades for novice players. If the players can create their own character they can identify with it far better. Pre-mades are fine for quick-starting more experienced roleplayers who can more easily drop into the character, but for those without experience that's not so easy. Sometimes you can drop players into play too quickly - and while character customisation does take some time, it gives them more time to get comfortable with their character and role.

I don’t agree. I rule games for complete beginners in a ludothèque (it’s like a public library, but with tons of games and no books) in Bordeaux and pre-made characters are great for newcomers. If I had to create characters, it’d take the whole night.
Same here. My first experience with RM was rolling up characters...and it did in fact take ALL night!!! we didn't even get to have a game. :-\
Well, OF COURSE it takes all bloody night if you're doing Rolemaster characters. I thought the whole point here was creating a light version? However, it seems you're looking to essentially change pretty much everything about Rolemaster... and when you change everything about something... it ends up nothing like the original. You need to strike a balance between  what you're changing and what you're keeping. Aside from the critical tables and 10 stats in number, I can't really see a whole lot you're keeping. And crit tables and having the right number of stats is not the basis for a game. You're not creating "Rolemaster Lite" here, you're creating "A whole new system based on replacing anything slightly clunky about RoleMaster". Which can also be seen as just cherry-picking the best bits.

I can imagine players being introduced on this "lite" system and then wanting to try the big version, only to be stuck thinking "hang on, this is a completely different game." Which means you'll have not succeeded at all in your original goal of making RM more accessible. Don't get me wrong, there are some cool ideas in this thread, I just think that you shouldn't be trying to use absolutely all of them in one go.

But, good luck with it :)

You are right, but with all the topics about mechanics and such, it’s hard to stay focused :p

However, the point is not to change everything. There is an incredible number of mechanics that work marvelously well in Rolemaster. Skills, for one. Critical hits, the way combat puts enouch pressure on the players to make them THINK before getting in over their heads, and magic is awesome, even though I am not a great lover of spell lists (but I admit Fire & Ice did a marvelous job in this area, the spell mechanics in this book are really good) - actually I never met a French player that liked spell lists, but all my players love all the rest of RM magic.
In my opinion, the way actions are dealt with, the probabilities and game mechanics that revolve around them are more RM than professions and DP.


     A. Disuading preconceptions: These are the "chartmaster" and other negative ideas that existing gamers have for


Oh my, what a pain it is.
I had the new players in the ludothèque play Rolemaster. They loved it.
Right after, I have a chat with the staff of the ludothèque and one of their friends, who also works in a ludothèque in a town next to Bordeaux (When I say next, I mean "on the other side of a boulevard").

Guy: So you have people play PnP rpgs here? That’s great!
Me: Yes. They actually loved it. I had them play a bunch of norse teenagers that come back to their village just to find it was plundered and burnt to the ground during the night.
Guy: So they had to inspect the place and ask around to piece what happened.
Me: Exactly. It worked beyond my expectations.
Guy: And what system did you use.
Me: Rolemaster, 4th edition, full version.
Guy: You did? But it’s too complicated!
Me: It’s not. The GM manages the rules, the players play their role, they don’t have to deal with them, so who cares if the rules are heavy?
Guy: Beginners can’t start with this game, they won’t hook on rpg with this.
Me: They did. Both.
Guy: No way!
Me: Ask them. They are here, look. Go ahead, I’m confident.

The guy never did ask. That’s the kind of reaction I get too often. Fun part, RMFRP wasn’t ever translated in French. The guy just does not know what he talks about.

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Regarding professions and my proposal, I’d be so happy if my proposal was just read and remembered whole.
If I want to put archetypes (call them professions if you want, words don’t matter but the ideas, mechanics and concept they translate do) in there, it’s for all those people who need or want rails. Those who don’t can do without them.

Here is an example of why I want to allow my players to switch to other ways:

"Personne" (French for nobody AND person) is a rogue in my campaign. His player chose a rogue for he wanted to play a man of the wilds, illiterate, unwilling to live among me but open minded and good hearted. Personne was agnostic, and did not really care about anything religious to be honest. He lived many adventures and, during one of those, discovered the folk of Earth, who prayed the All-Mother. The player took interest in her, and thus so did his character. After hanging with the folk, becoming friend and witnessing miracles, he decided to take up arms to champion her cause. And here comes the frustration.
The player asked me: is there any way to become a kind of priest of the wilds, or a shaman, or a witchdoctor? He really wanted this. And he can’t. There is no way this can be done, for all his dp costs should be changed, his profession bonuses too, and some skills would change their class (e, o, r). He’s locked. That’s what I call an hindrance.

If it was all about power leveling and min maxing, I’d refuse. But that’s a logical development of the character, who discovered a faith that resounded with his soul. He heard the call, and I can’t let him heed it because there is a hole the size of a meteor impact in the character development rules.


Now to answer Pastaav, about the fact that every player would just pick what they want here and there to do a character that can do everything, and the point about the access to magic.

First: that’s something that is monitored by the rules and by the setting. In DD3, you can easily multiclass but there are rules to prevent the mess.
Second: the access to magic should be regulated. Always. Let’s have a look about it.

Arcane: need a power source, or a mentor. In my setting, you also must have the necessary talent.
Channeling: you need to obey a god. Give commands. Let the players that overlook them feel the fury of their divine patron.
Essence: already covered in essence companion, but a talent would also be useful.
Mentalisme: same than essence.

Then, there is the way to acquire talents. Can you acquire it during the campaign, why? How?

It is obvious you can’t have everybody become a magician because they want to fry goblins with fireballs. That’s when the setting and things like the source of power and apprenticeship come in handy. That’s the job of the GM to decide what, how and when character devlopment occurs. An examble from RMSS/FRP: even if a fighter has the necessary DPs, he won’t be able to buy ranks in an arcane base spell list if I say he can’t.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: Rolemaster Lite
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2012, 02:46:34 PM »
And according to my experience. You only need to use light character sheets to have new players discover the game.

What a RM light game should do is making like easy for the GM. RM is already really easy for the players (declare action, roll dice if need be. End of the story.)