Author Topic: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement (Read 14747 times)

Bubba Ho-Tep · « **Reply #20 on:** January 02, 2011, 09:54:36 PM »

I hope things go well in 2011 for the products, I have been playing some iteration of RM since 1985 and would hate to see it go away. I have to agree on what was said by Cory about books on the shelf. As a long time game demoer (is that a word?) I can tell you first hand that people want to be able to look at a book before purchasing it. I have seen people wave a hand and dismiss a game over not having a book to look at, so I hope that whatever marketing strategy that in planned can over come that obsticle. That being said, I will continue to support the games I love no matter what, so good luck.

Ron

Raf Blutaxt · « **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2011, 08:10:39 AM »

Perhaps it would be a good idea to change the info on the company page on the ICE homepage?
It still gives all the info for Mjolnir, including e-mails for Bruce and Heike.

Thom @ ICE · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2011, 08:13:41 AM »

Actually those addresses and information are stated as specific to the Mjolnir Games Store, but I can see where they would create confusion. I'll edit the page to remove them now that Mjolnir Games is no longer carrying ICE products. Thanks for pointing it out.

Steel Rabbit · « **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2011, 04:27:15 PM »

Will ICE still be selling through traditional hobby channels (i.e. brick-and-mortar shops)?

ictus · « **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2011, 04:37:14 PM »

Quote from: Steel Rabbit on January 03, 2011, 04:27:15 PM

Will ICE still be selling through traditional hobby channels (i.e. brick-and-mortar shops)?

Mjollnir barely sold through real stores anyway, with many store unable to even order product, so I think availability will be better overall.

The trick will be to let folks know the product exists....I suspect the new team will be more progressive and affective in this respect.

Raf Blutaxt · « **Reply #25 on:** January 03, 2011, 04:56:36 PM »

But the answer is no, at least at the moment the plan seems to be to sell through rpgnow and drivethroughrpg, who are just unrolling a print on demand program.

The trick will indeed be in letting people know that the products exist, I think.

As for availability, all gaming stores I have been in lately (in Germany) did have newer ICE books, Harp, RM FRP and even RM C in some cases. So for some reason
distribution in Germany was better than the US for some time.

pastaav · « **Reply #26 on:** January 04, 2011, 07:19:41 AM »

I have been thinking some...it sort of feels like we have walked the full circle. When the first ICE went up in smoke there was plenty of talk among the fans about buying the RM Ip and making the fans themselves empowered to make new products. The things stopping us then was mostly problem assembling the needed funds, print-on-demand being too expensive and too new and the fear of not having books out in the stores to draw new fans. There is real danger from disappearing from the front line stores, something that happened to classical model-building essentially died from not getting new blood. On the other hand the world with its increased use of the Internet has changed since that time. GCP and Aurigas seems to aim to do what the fans wanted to do back then, and perhaps it is really can be made to work this time.

If we look frankly at facts HARP has been a zombie product for years with no real support. Great ideas like Something Wicked would never materialize because HARP SciFi taking all the resources. Much could be said about why HARP SciFi is still not here, but I suspect a large part of the delay can be attributed to stuff like HARP LE and RMC stealing time from the Mjolnir crew. The same can be said for Cyradon that would have needed more support to gain momentum.

The crucial thing here is not version bashing or putting RM and HARP in opposite corners, rather it is about the idea that there have been narrow sections in the design process. A small company like Mjolnir had too many product lines to support and total throughput got reduced to nothing as delays with one product would harm the process to develop other products. If GCP can make sure the narrow sections between product lines are not dependent on the same people (llke HARP SciFi and Something Wicked) then they can probably increase the fan base. The essential thing is having products appear in a steady fashion so that people will not get burnt on waiting on new toys. The approval process from Aurigas is most likely one of the (new?) narrow sections of the new set up, but hopefully things will improve.

With all this said I must also comment RMC and RMSS. I think RMC was an idea built on a dream about the RM2 crowd returning if just their favorite edition was resurrected. Sorry to say, but I don't think this ever will happen. Old RM2 fans are too old to visit gaming stores, heck they are probably too old to actively checking if their favorite edition is back in print. To make things worse, the years of lack of support for RMSS have essentially forced the same state on us RMSS fans. What is the likelihood really that any RMSS fans still expect their edition to get support after these years of lack of attention?

So where are we now? Hopefully we are moving into the future when presence at DriveThrougRPGs mean more new blood coming into fan-base than a neglected shelf in a limited number of gaming stores. Marketing on the Internet will be hard, but why should it be harder to win on Facebook with print-on-demand services than with a webstore on the ICE site that nobody knows about?

I think that GCP should focus on Harp, Harp SciFi and Cyradon for the time being. An honest "we will wait with RM until later" is much better than "it is fully supported (but won't get any real support beyond the RMC books)". RMC at DriveThrougRPGs will not make any impact at all if you ask me, you won't ever get market buzz over a revised version of RM2. Getting as many RM books available as possible is essential for GCP to learn how to handle multiple projects in parallel, but the next thing for RM need to be a new edition that include the RM core and have RMC and RMSS as addons.

Mando · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2011, 08:49:10 AM »

FYI, on the "global interest of the RPG community for RM related things" topic, The Shadow World Player Guide is today in the 12th position on the top 100 list of Rapide JDR (French sister of RPG Now)... Knowing that the only french translated SW product was "The Orgilion Horror" back in the days and that the SW Player Guide was added on this site in September, it looks like an item of hope to me.

http://www.rapidejdr.fr/top_100.php

(amusing site name, rapide in french means fast, and it's one of the slowest sites I know

...

Mando · « **Reply #28 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:05:57 AM »

In my (relativley small) experience, HARP was the only ICE game that players of 3rd and 4th edition of "you know what" were willing to try...

Players and GMs of any RM version have all the books they need to play for some decades. HARP is more friendly to convert or bring in new gamers, and there is still plenty of room for new books.

Throw in a streamlined v2 with more options (combat Ã la carte, more or less skills, different casting spells options, etc.) and a major adventure path Ã la Paizo, and you could sell some, in my opinion... Many gamers today don't have time to write their own adventures, so you need to provide adventures with your system. As you can also double or tri-stat with free PDFs, you could have a wide audience for this (HARP, RM, d20).

For a HARP v2, I would think of a very simple core, with a lot of options in an "Options Book", Ã la Unearthed Arcana. New RPG rules should have a very simple core, people don't have time to digest 400 pages behemoth rules anymore. And then add every two or three months an expansion booklet (64 pages, cheap, color) with new professions, races, spells, talents, monsters, etc. Interesting to mix, as GMs AND players would like to buy it. Mixed with adventures, it should make the internet talk and generate a lot of interest.

For the setting, I would go with Shadow World, it's so hard to bring in an interesting non licenced setting these days...

Guillaume · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2011, 12:40:46 PM »

Quote from: Mando on January 04, 2011, 08:49:10 AM

The Shadow World Player Guide is today in the 12th position on the top 100 list of Rapide JDR (French sister of RPG Now)... Knowing that the only french translated SW product was "The Orgilion Horror" back in the days and that the SW Player Guide was added on this site in September, it looks like an item of hope to me.

Perversedly SW was a hit in France... Hexagonal didn't know on what they were sitting.

markc · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:11:44 PM »

Too Old to check what the latest version is!

BTW, I started with RM2 in the late 90's but had the game that a friend had given me back in 85'.

MDC

yammahoper · « **Reply #31 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:51:29 PM »

The French often like things Americans don't.

To old...lol. I started playing RM in the mid 80's myself. Bought the 1st edition in that big box. Inside the origin of the moniker chartmaster was born because all the tables were printed on cardboard stock.

I have no problem navigating the net you young whiper snapper.

This restructuring needs to support the lines they opt to keep. Really, thats it. New product beats reprints. Gamers are collecters at heart. We buy books just cuz they might be useful or sound very cool or have great art work, et al. Back that up with a quality game and product, and you will generate sales.

As small as this company is, they need designers to write new stuff. A game world with regular releases. VAMPIRE did so well because of the clan books. Heck, you did not need lots of clan books, but by gum you WANTED them. When I gave my Vampire stuff away, it was a sizable stack of stuff.

My point is no company can make any money or become popular without product to sell. I agree with pastaav that one line of RM should be declared the chose, then run with THAT RM, HARP and Space Master, or shuck them all but one: whatever. Just release stuff every month.

Cory Magel · « **Reply #32 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:28:25 PM »

Quote from: yammahoper on January 04, 2011, 01:51:29 PM

To old...lol. I started playing RM in the mid 80's myself. Bought the 1st edition in that big box. Inside the origin of the moniker chartmaster was born because all the tables were printed on cardboard stock.

I had that stuff once.

Quote

This restructuring needs to support the lines they opt to keep. Really, thats it. New product beats reprints. Gamers are collecters at heart. We buy books just cuz they might be useful or sound very cool or have great art work, et al. Back that up with a quality game and product, and you will generate sales.

Unfortunately if you want your game system to stay alive as a viable product for the game company you essentially have to reprint every so often. How often depends I guess, but I'd say 5 at the quickest and 10 at the slowest. You will eventually run out of quality material to publish and, at that point, it's either start over with a new version or abandon that system (or, in D&D's case - live off your name and just start putting crap out - which was the start of the end for TSR).

Quote

As small as this company is, they need designers to write new stuff. A game world with regular releases.

I won't bother commenting on the 1st and 2nd incarnations of ICE and how they functioned, but with the newest ICE we're about to see I am sure the problem with what you would like to see is that there will be no dedicated designers to write new stuff. I suspect everyone involved will be doing it as their second job, even the 'official employees'. I'm honestly shocked that people like Tim were able to work for ICE as their primary job (and I'll bet you he had a secondary job). The table top game market just won't support a purely table top role-playing game company. Wizards of the Coast is the only company that stands a chance of doing that and I really don't think they even could. Maybe if you actually had a gamer in charge of it again, maybe. But I really doubt even that is possible.

Quote

My point is no company can make any money or become popular without product to sell. I agree with pastaav that one line of RM should be declared the chose, then run with THAT RM, HARP and Space Master, or shuck them all but one: whatever. Just release stuff every month.

I think that continuing in the immediate future with the RMC run is smart for a number of reasons, both legal and market-wise. I don't know all the details involved there-in, but I can guess enough based on my past knowledge of and history with ICE to see why that is a good direction to take things initially. However I don't think it will last long and I wish the time they had spent on it had been dedicated to simply revamping RM2/RMSS as a whole into a new version.

HARP I don't really see a huge need to mess with right now. Start putting out some support material for it if possible, don't rock the boat too much on what is considered a fairly good system. While the system has been out for several years, I think it still has some life in it. Just start trying to market it more.

Addition: Forgot to say... I doubt even WotC could put out a decent quality item every month for one game system.

pastaav · « **Reply #33 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:56:09 PM »

To clarify my post about people being too old. This has very little to do with people lacking the skills to check what the latest version is and very much about them having too many contending things to keep them busy with other things. Simple truth is that having children eats more time than any single thing. Most RM fans are at the age of having or getting children and if they took a break from RM some years back the likelihood of them actually picking it up again is not very high IMHO. Of course some might do so if they children can be made to look into Roleplaying, but I think World of Warcraft is a much more likely match.

ICEBruce · « **Reply #34 on:** January 04, 2011, 03:34:51 PM »

Please use the following email address in the future

MGBruceN@aol.com

Thanks

GrumpyOldFart · « **Reply #35 on:** January 04, 2011, 03:56:50 PM »

Quote from: pastaav on January 04, 2011, 02:56:09 PM

Simple truth is that having children eats more time than any single thing. Most RM fans are at the age of having or getting children and if they took a break from RM some years back the likelihood of them actually picking it up again is not very high IMHO. Of course some might do so if they children can be made to look into Roleplaying, but I think World of Warcraft is a much more likely match.

This sounds very similar to a remark I made offline on this very subject:

Quote

As for how well the product line survives... well the whole concept has always been something of a niche market anyway, and any non "Not RM" system even more so. In a lot of ways now the competition isn't with "Not RM", it's with XBoxes, iPod apps and WoW. On that aspect of the problem, I can throw ideas into the hopper all day, to be ground up and spat out... but I'm not a marketing expert and I know it, and keeping the non-computerized RPG industry alive is a problem that has already confounded better minds than me.

GrumpyOldFart · « **Reply #36 on:** January 04, 2011, 04:26:48 PM »

In fact, looking at current trends in society (as much as I keep up with such anyway), I think the next generation of "the real game takes place in your head" type gamers (in other words the ones video games didn't draw off the first time, back when RM1 was new) will likely be doing something vaguely akin to play-by-post via text message.

rdanhenry · « **Reply #37 on:** January 04, 2011, 07:15:52 PM »

There are still going to be people who prefer to interact with other human beings, rather than interacting with a machine that is interacting with other machines which interact with their humans. It's not like this hasn't been a niche hobby for most of its existence. Heck, when AD&D was HUGE it was still a minority of the population that was playing, even among its biggest demographics. The question is how to survive in that niche. Defeatism is definitely the way. Nor, in the short term, is a new edition the answer, or even AN answer. It takes time and resources to do it right, especially if the pipe dream of reconciling RM2 and RMSS is to be pursued (a lost cause, I think - any new edition should be for the purpose of bringing in new customers, not trying to negotiate truces between existing ones).

Of course, it is to the benefit of all of us to expand the player pool. So those with children, raise them as gamers. Run games for your friends children. Don't run games for random neighborhood children whose parents you don't even know; that gives the wrong impression, and doesn't have the cool-factor of the Satanism scare. If you've got spare funds, you might even buy an extra set of the basic books for some favored game and donate them to young geek, or a library, or your local high school's games club, if they have one. I wish ICE could do something about this, but they can't. They need to show up on gamer's radar right now. As for non-gamers, Hasbro/WotC is the only publisher that can get their attention in significant numbers and grow the market. Another subject, for another forum.

Bubba Ho-Tep · « **Reply #38 on:** January 05, 2011, 10:15:53 PM »

I started playing RM again as soon as my kids were old enough to play it. I started them off with kiddie D&D and then moved into a real RPG. LOL.

The biggest problem I find with getting new players into RM is with the videogame mentality taking everything over, just look at 4E. My kids love because they cut their teeth on it.

I plan to help promote RM in any way I can to help out.

Langthorne · « **Reply #39 on:** January 22, 2011, 04:53:33 PM »

I haven't posted on the forums for a while but this announcement aroused my interest.

The fate and fortunes of 'ICE Mk X' will probably have very little bearing on my enjoyment of Rolemaster and RPGs generally. I have my system and house rules and could happily stick with them. I suspect that realistically many other 'established' players are in the same boat. My preferred system happens to be RMSS, but I don't really expect 'system support', nor do I really miss it (particularly some of the IMO poor 'Official Rulings' I recall being posted in the forums).

Although I dislike it, I think HARP could be a successful 'gateway' system. In the short term I would focus on it

There have been some very good comments posted here, especially regarding the future of Rolemaster. I think that the plan for Rolemaster should be for a new system. There are many things I would like to see in a new system (like many I others I have posted some ideas on the forums at one time or other), but whether or not they were included I would likely still buy it. I don't think that trying to please all existing players is possible or desirable - just assemble the best available and interested designers (and maybe call for ideas on the forum too), and then task those designers to come up with the best system they can (then edit, produce and test it heavily). Obviously this would all take some time.

Best of luck - let me know if I can help!

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Author Topic: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement (Read 14747 times)