Topic: Bastard weapon + buckler question...

[ToM]

Quick facts: one of my PCs, a dwarven fighter, uses a bastard axe. It can be used both one-handed (with a -20 penalty) and two-handed.
Now, e also uses a buckler in the off-hand. We assumed he can swing his axe two-handed leaving the buckler in place with only a -20 penalty to the attack.
Given he is a really slow fighter due to poor INIT, he always let the foe go first and prefers all-out deliberate attacks.

The question is: should he be allowed in a single round to parry his opponent with weapon + shield AND deliberate attack with two-handed bonus and table?
He says: I take the -20 penalty, and rapidly change from 1 hand to 2 hands.
I say: should it be (changing from 1 hand to 2 hands stance) be considered an action in itself with a percentage activity needed (10/20%?) or can he go free with it?

[thirqual]

No he cannot. The 'attack' in RM a not a single swing, but is an abstraction of a series of blows, feints, etc.

[Kristen Mork]

Would you allow an archer to shoot his bow (at -20) while benefiting from a buckler?  If so, I see no reason not to allow the dwarf to attack two-handed (at -20) while using a buckler.  If not, the dwarf is out of luck.

I agree with Thirqual in that an "attack" is not a single blow, but perhaps a bastard axe wielding dwarf is switching back and forth between 1-handed and 2-handed blows, feints, etc. depending on whether or not he needs to use the shield.

Finally, why doesn't the dwarf use a full shield and just take the -20 penalty for fighting 1-handed?  The shield DB is better (by at least +5), he can still parry with his axe, and attack during the deliberate phase.  Since we seem to have drifted into ad hoc rules anyway, I'd propose:

Attack with a bastard weapon in one-hand: -20
Attack with a two-handed weapon while using a buckler: -10
You have to choose at the beginning of the round if you're using a weapon one or two-handed.

Then, his options would be:
1) Shield (of any sort) + Axe @ -20
2) Buckler + Axe @ -10
3) Axe @ 0

One might rule that option 2) precludes benefiting from the shield DB (I think this is the rule in D&D 3.5), but I always favor better defensive options.  On the other hand, the benefit of the buckler is that you can switch between 1) and 2) as needed.

[ToM]

Well thirqual notations are true, an "attack action" is an abstarctionof a series of blows and swings. But, RMSS uses a three-phases system and he wants to use this option only as a deliberate (possibily react & melee) attack. Like he parried all round committing attention to defense only and then landing a single solid blow with his two-handed weapon. By the rules, I know he cannot. But, try to imagine that, seems not so unlogical to do. The problem is, overkilling.

@ Peter: I wouldn't allow anyone to use a two-handed wapon with a normal shield. A normal shield is larger, and heavier, than a target shield. It must be handled and if the defender is not grasping the handle of the shield it does not stay in his place, but will hang down the shield arm, possibily hindering movement beyond reasonably being able to use shield arm to attack or manipulate anything. A buckler, as I intend it, is a much lighter and smalle shield, which is tied up to the vambrace like a large gauntlet. You actually MUST handle it to use it against a target and take the DB bonus, but you can let him loose and it will not hang down hindering movement too much. Still, a -20 penalty seems appropriate.

The question is: would you consider changing stance from 1 handed weapon & shield to 2 handed weapon an action by itself, and if yes, how much activity will it take?

[Kristen Mork]

ToM: I was not suggesting that one be allowed to use a two-handed weapon with a normal shield.  Rather, the following:

* 2-handed weapon + shield: not allowed
* 2-handed weapon + buckler: -10
* 2-handed weapon: 0
* 1-handed weapon + shield/buckler/nothing: 0

A bastard weapon can be treated as a 2-handed weapon (no penalty) or as a 1-handed weapon (at -20).  Combining these options, for a bastard axe, yields:

* 2-handed axe + shield: not allowed
* 2-handed axe + buckler: -10 (might preclude using the buckler for defense)
* 2-handed axe: 0
* 1-handed axe + shield: -20
* 1-handed axe + buckler: -20
* 1-handed axe: -20

[Kristen Mork]

ToM: Changing a weapon from one hand to another is a 10% action.  So, I couldn't imagine changing from 1-handed use to 2-handed (or vice versa) would be more than 5%.  Dropping an item doesn't usually require any activity; shifting from 2-hands to 1-hand shouldn't be more difficult than shifting from 2-hands to none, should it?

[ToM]

ToM: Changing a weapon from one hand to another is a 10% action.  So, I couldn't imagine changing from 1-handed use to 2-handed (or vice versa) would be more than 5%.  Dropping an item doesn't usually require any activity; shifting from 2-hands to 1-hand shouldn't be more difficult than shifting from 2-hands to none, should it?

Yep sure. Got it.
The 10% action for shifting weapons might go, considering that not only the character must change the wielding of the weapon but he must indeed completely change is attack/defense stance. So, giving the penalty for using bastard weapon with both hands + buckler is -20, adding the -10 penalty for 10% action to shift weapons, our dwarf CAN actually attack in deliberate phase with a total -30 modifier, right?

[Kristen Mork]

I think that's more than fair (as I've noted I would use smaller modifiers); I agree with your reasoning and the outcome.

[markc]

No he cannot. The 'attack' in RM a not a single swing, but is an abstraction of a series of blows, feints, etc.

  I agree with the above. I also think you could create some special rules so he does not have to drop his buckler while attacking 2H with the B-Axe. BTW I am supprised the B word got through the filters.
 
 As to % actions, I like to try and rationalise it as best I can. So 5% is 0.5 seconds 10% is 1.0 seconds. So what ever you as a GM decide or your group decides IMHO is good. I would have it be a min of 5% action maybe 10% if they have a special martial arts style that focuses on strength or a special 2H stance.
 
MDC

[TerryTee]

Just going back to the original assumptions a bit…. -20 for the 1H attack seems a little harsh to me. Do you use the same table for 1H and 2H bastard axe attack, or do you change attack table? If you change attack table -20 seems like a big hit on the OB.
-Terry

[markc]

Just going back to the original assumptions a bit…. -20 for the 1H attack seems a little harsh to me. Do you use the same table for 1H and 2H bastard axe attack, or do you change attack table? If you change attack table -20 seems like a big hit on the OB.
-Terry

I am going to take a stab that it come from here. But I could be wrong.



From weapons of Novi: http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/1999/jun/noviweapons.html


BULBOVA: RC3 18, Battle-Axe, 15 SP, 4.5#, 3', F 6. Triple use: 2H/TH, Range -5 -25 -50 (50' max), Armor -10 -5 0 +5 +5; 1HE, Armor -15 -10 -5 0 0. A lighter battle axe specially designed to allow two-handed throwing and one-handed melee attacks in addition to that of the normal battle axe. It was invented by an Ulvarin Omikhani during the High Kingdom; its use spread first to such other heavily Omikhani nations as Grindenwald and Kenax, then within the last century to such other nations as Allon, Alvaron, and Paragon, where it is also called a "bastard axe" or "hand-and-a-half axe."
[/size]
[/size]MDC

[Erik Sharma]

Just going back to the original assumptions a bit…. -20 for the 1H attack seems a little harsh to me. Do you use the same table for 1H and 2H bastard axe attack, or do you change attack table? If you change attack table -20 seems like a big hit on the OB.
-Terry

For me it sounds like he is using the Armory book where many Bastard Weapons (Bastard Axe, Bastard Sword for example) have their own table. And instead of switching tables you instead get a mod and use the same table when fighting 1 Handed.

[Kristen Mork]

The mod for using a bastard weapon in 1-hand (in the Armory book) is -15.

[rdanhenry]

I think the idea is ridiculous. Nobody would fight like that. And an actual buckler is at least as hand-occupying as a dagger. It'd be more practical to try this trick with a main gauche on a wrist-thong. If you do allow this, changing from 1-handed to 2-handed use of a weapon should certainly count as a action when he has to clear the second hand first. And he'll need another action the following round before he can use that buckler again, since that's essentially drawing a weapon. Yes, I think that's the way I'd go. Make it as cumbersome as possible and let the player figure out for himself why this isn't very workable. Also note that he'll only get the shield bonus in snap on that first round. He needs to lose it in the normal phase to have that second hand available in deliberate. So he'll take the penalties just to have a possible DB bonus against a snap attack. Then at the beginning of the next round, he'll either stick with two-handed use or rewield the buckler in snap, which is only useful if he doesn't drop it again in normal (since that's when he'd start benefiting from it), leaving him fighting one-handed in deliberate unless he forgoes attacking in order to unwield the buckler again.

[pastaav]

The question is: should he be allowed in a single round to parry his opponent with weapon + shield AND deliberate attack with two-handed bonus and table?
He says: I take the -20 penalty, and rapidly change from 1 hand to 2 hands.
I say: should it be (changing from 1 hand to 2 hands stance) be considered an action in itself with a percentage activity needed (10/20%?) or can he go free with it?

Essentially this is the same kind of argument as saying...I do a full parry when the enemy attack...and then as a deliberate attack I make an full out attack. It is against the rules, but you sometimes hear such arguments.

The only way you can argue this to be true is by claiming that the phases are separate rounds, and that is not true. The action of the RMSS round happen in a continuous flow, the phases only serve as structure to speed up resolution of if the player is waiting for opportunity to going for quick blow. In essence it is an approximation of how second by second system allow actions to conflict.

Turning to you specific question. If you think about the rules for multiple attacks the basic rule is that both attacks must use the same OB/DB split for all attacks. The exception is that if the person is hasted he can change his OB/DB split between phases.

If we extrapolate to this situation we can determine that if the character is hasted he could do as the player want. Depending on what phase the attacker decide to land his blow he must either overcome the buckler DB or can ignore it. In practice the attacker will ignore the buckler most times since every character should elect for deliberate unless he has something other important he need to do in the round. Also if he is not hasted he can not do the suggested action because each melee action is 60% action in RMSS/RMFRP. If you rule that shifting the buckler from active grip to not in use, demand some percentage of action, he is in even more shortage of percentage for his attacks.