Vambraces and greaves

[ValGalad]

In reviewing the penalties for armors, helmets, vambraces and greaves, I have several questions that I hope someone can answer. Sorry if some of them are explained in the rules (it's a lot of information  ).

1. Is it possible to reduce ranged penalties and perception penalties in any way?
2. Can maneuver penalties be reduced to zero?
3. Do maneuver penalties apply to all movement skills? And to the rest? And to swimming, do they apply the same or multiplied by 2 or 3?
4. If you make armor that is lighter than normal, are the penalties reduced in any way?
5. Finally, the most important question. I haven't seen on any critical table that vambraces or greaves help you in any way (as they did in previous versions of RM). So: what are they really for?

Thank you!
Valgalad

[Thot]

For what version of RM are you asking?

For RU (the newest version):

1. There are spells that can reduce range penalties, anjd of course magic and even just high quality items could as well.

2. Yes, if you have the relevant skills levelled high enough.

3. See section 7.2 in Core Law.
"Maneuver penalties apply to any maneuver
that requires freedom of movement (e.g., running or
climbing) but not Combat Training skills. Vambraces
(arm protection) also give penalties to ranged weapon
attacks, due to the weight of the armor on the arms,
while helms also give penalties to perception due to
their limited field of view and dampening of sounds."

4. The encumbrance penalties (which may come on top of the maneuver penalties, depending on what you carry) will be reduced, but for reducing maneuver penalties, you'd have to get a magic item or armor of especially high quality that is directed towards reducing maneuver penalties.

5. Vambraces or greaves increase your protection for the arms, which is relevant for called shots/attacks. Per RAW, you would also determine hit location by rolling crits along with the attack, find the crit result's hit location, then apply the AT of that location to the attack roll.

[Hurin]

Treasure Law (p.84) also specifies that magical bonuses can be used to reduce Perception penalties on helms as well as ranged penalties on vambraces.

[nash]

5. Finally, the most important question. I haven't seen on any critical table that vambraces or greaves help you in any way (as they did in previous versions of RM). So: what are they really for?

Expanding Thot's answer here:

Piecemeal armor is an optional rule - but pretty easy to implement (roll20 uses it by default).   In which case you can have different ATs for different regions.  Roll the critical roll first, that determines the location, then roll the attack based on the AT of the location you are (hopefully) going to hit.  That AT is based on that armor is in that location.

[pastaav]

If you are not using the Piecemeal armor rule, then vambraces and greaves come with the armor. The protection that armor grants builds on the fact that you carry the armor parts included in the armor.

It is also worth mentioning that the critical tables have been designed so that higher AT always translates to better protection. The damage output for each critical has also been redone so that the progression of worse results with higher dice rolls is consistent. In previous editions, there were critical tables that caused more severe damage. The crit negation-if-you-carry-x-as-gear was not picked as one of the measured ways to cause damage for criticals, probably because it is hard to put a fair number on this mechanic.

All in all, I can agree that the old special rules for vambraces and greaves had some flavor, but they are IMHO a small sacrifice for all the benefits of the RMU combat tables.

[ValGalad]

Thank you very much for your answers.
From them I deduce that, unless you roll the critical at the same time as the attack (which is not in the rules), the helmet, vambraces and greaves only serve to penalise you. In fact, a PC could go with only Torso protections and the same AT column would be used on the attack table as if he were wearing the full armor suit.

If this is the case, it seems to me to be a big hole in the system that we should try to correct 

[Thot]

[...]
Piecemeal armor is an optional rule - but pretty easy to implement (roll20 uses it by default).   In which case you can have different ATs for different regions.  Roll the critical roll first, that determines the location, then roll the attack based on the AT of the location you are (hopefully) going to hit.  That AT is based on that armor is in that location.

I would like to point out that players generally like the critical role as the climax of the attack, which is why that rule does not work that well on an emotional level. For that, it would have been better if there had been a separate hit location table and the critical tables were location-agnostic.

[Thot]

Thank you very much for your answers.
From them I deduce that, unless you roll the critical at the same time as the attack (which is not in the rules),

It is. Page 147 in Core Law, the box on the right.

the helmet, vambraces and greaves only serve to penalise you. In fact, a PC could go with only Torso protections and the same AT column would be used on the attack table as if he were wearing the full armor suit.

No. At least I interpret  the rules as written so that you'd have to wear the full suit or not have any armor at all, because the enemy would always attack your lowest AT (as would you, wouldn't you?).

[nash]

[...]
Piecemeal armor is an optional rule - but pretty easy to implement (roll20 uses it by default).   In which case you can have different ATs for different regions.  Roll the critical roll first, that determines the location, then roll the attack based on the AT of the location you are (hopefully) going to hit.  That AT is based on that armor is in that location.

I would like to point out that players generally like the critical role as the climax of the attack, which is why that rule does not work that well on an emotional level. For that, it would have been better if there had been a separate hit location table and the critical tables were location-agnostic.

Extra rolls are annoying.  If you roll both pairs of dice at the same time it's also not a major issue.  And in my case the VTT does all the rolling anyway.

[jdale]

Thank you very much for your answers.
From them I deduce that, unless you roll the critical at the same time as the attack (which is not in the rules), the helmet, vambraces and greaves only serve to penalise you. In fact, a PC could go with only Torso protections and the same AT column would be used on the attack table as if he were wearing the full armor suit.

If this is the case, it seems to me to be a big hole in the system that we should try to correct 

If you use piecemeal armor, you should roll the crit and the attack roll together and assess the attack based on the target area's AT. In that case the armor in each location is important.

If you don't want to use piecemeal armor -- and for the sake of streamlining play I can certainly see not wanting to -- then you should require everyone to wear full suits of armor. Allowing characters to purchase and wear armor on a piecemeal basis (e.g. torso only) without using the piecemeal armor rules makes no sense and the undesirable outcome is to be expected. That's why page 147 says "As shown on Table 6-4 in Chapter 6 penalties are given for complete suits, as well as the individual pieces if the Piecemeal Armor rules are used (see below)."

In my group we do use the piecemeal armor rules but it's automated, so it costs no time. I might do it differently without automation.

[ValGalad]

Unterstood. Thank you everybody! 

[Thot]

Extra rolls are annoying.  If you roll both pairs of dice at the same time it's also not a major issue.  And in my case the VTT does all the rolling anyway.

That is valid, but the sensation of "okay now, I CAN roll for a crit! It'll be great, watch me!!! ... 66! YAYYY" will then be missing.

[nash]

Extra rolls are annoying.  If you roll both pairs of dice at the same time it's also not a major issue.  And in my case the VTT does all the rolling anyway.

That is valid, but the sensation of "okay now, I CAN roll for a crit! It'll be great, watch me!!! ... 66! YAYYY" will then be missing.

I could hide it if you really want - but I think most people would rather have the convenience of single click to attack.   In any case the results in roll20 are show as:

Code Select Expand

Ukebe Usloe attacks Rajohao Faida with a Thrown Batte Axe
Hit!
153 = 89 [Roll] +-24 [Attack Bonus] -(-88) [Target DB]

Hits Leg for 24ES
Critical Roll 42
Cut to kneecap cracks the bone. Crunch!
+19 Hits, -15, Stag

So results wise you see the Hit/Miss, (the numbers), the location and the base damage... then the critical result.

[Thot]

Yeah, I don't use VTT's. Too much hassle if I want to adjust anything, houserule this or that or just plain want to improvise. I want to play, not learn a software. I just use ERA for resolving the rolls (and only the table roll option therein), which is not nearly as complete as what you describe.

[Filroden]

I could hide it if you really want - but I think most people would rather have the convenience of single click to attack.

I do a hidden critical roll and store the result. I use it during the attack to declare the location hit, but I then allow players to "roll" for critical, and just spoof it by forcing the roll result to be the saved roll from earlier. It gives them that sense of suspense. But it's very much a group preference thing.