Topic: Character generator/character sheet for Spacemaster 2nd edition

[TerryTee]

Just thought I?d advertise a bit and mention that I?ve uploaded a character sheet / character generator for Spacemaster 2nd edition (Excel workbook) to the Vault.
Questions, feedback and feature requests are welcome.

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item611

-Terry

[international1]

I am not an excel spreedsheet person...only an attorney...so I have been trying to update old spreedsheets to encompass both SM and RM.  This is a good start.  I would love to see the community put one together that was easy to modify for those who have a need.  I only want to be able to run a scifi campaign that may have fantasy elements at times.  Since RM and SM are supposed to be compatible...it would be useful to get a character sheet that could handle both.

Good start for the Classic or old rules.

[markc]

I am not an excel spreedsheet person...only an attorney...so I have been trying to update old spreedsheets to encompass both SM and RM.  This is a good start.  I would love to see the community put one together that was easy to modify for those who have a need.  I only want to be able to run a scifi campaign that may have fantasy elements at times.  Since RM and SM are supposed to be compatible...it would be useful to get a character sheet that could handle both.

Good start for the Classic or old rules.

  I am with you as I plan on a combo-campaign with RMSS and SM:P. I have not done an Excel sheet yet but I would also like one in which you can change skill cost, skill progression, skill type [E, O, R], take away skills, skill stat and anything else that comes to mind.

A side note, in the future there is on the drawing boards going to be some profession companion that just may combine the space professions with the fantasy professions. But that is a guess on my part and from remembering from somewhere what they said about future ICE products. I also think it will be a RMSS/FRP and SM:P book not RM2 and SM2, so for that you might have to do some estimated guess work and some play testing to get the power level right.
MDC

[international1]

One other wish on my wish list is if you could add the option to assign the stats instead of rolling the stats.  I have moved away from randomly generating stats in my SM:P rules.  This would also be useful on the Psion list/Spell list purchase as well.  RM Classic has a method of buying Spell lists that removes the randmoness and makes it fair for a spell caster who can simply expend points to buy spell lists.  Since other classes have no randomly available skills it puts players on a level playing field.

[TerryTee]

Thanks for your feedback International1

The main focus of this workbook is obviously Spacemaster, so the Rolemaster support is limited to races, professions and skills. There is not really a lot of rules support in the sheet at the moment, with the following exceptions I can think of at the top of my head:
-XP and level
-Bonus, DP and PP for stats (configurable in current version)
-Skill bonus for skill Ranks
-Various calculations (DB, Total Skill, HP, RR, PP)
-A configurable house rule on weapon skill categories
-A configurable house rule on minimum stat when generating stats randomly
-A configurable house rule on development points multiplier
(I make a distinction here between rules and pure data like race stat bonuses, skill costs, level bonuses).

Building flexibility into a character generator is quite possible, but I?m not my choice of Excel is the best option? A problem with flexibility is the added complexity for the user. I often get a bit put off when opening a new character generator due to complexity.
I have tried to keep the complexity down a little (I don?t know if I?ve succeeded;-). My aim has been to build a character sheet that is easy to use, and that can be used in a manner that suits the player. I have added a Wizard-thing, but the player is free to create a character any way he wants to, doing different bits at different times or come back to bits that are not done (a few exceptions where things must be done in order).
I?d be happy to look at how RM could b e better incorporated, but I don?t play RM?

You can assign stats in two ways:
1) Do it directly in the FRONTSHEET
2) On the main form (push Edit character) you can highlight and edit the stats right there. I guess this is not obvious from the layout, but if you highlight the first stat, then you can just TAB through the rest.

Personally I always roll stats, so that I too set them manually in the character sheet.

I?m not sure I follow on the buying of lists. The current version of the form for Psion has no buying mechanism; It is up to the player/GM to determine when a List or Portion of a List can be added, and then add it through the form.

-Terry

[TerryTee]

  I am with you as I plan on a combo-campaign with RMSS and SM:P. I have not done an Excel sheet yet but I would also like one in which you can change skill cost, skill progression, skill type [E, O, R], take away skills, skill stat and anything else that comes to mind.

Thanks for your input marc
This looks pretty much like changing the data sets around. It is present in the CharMaker 5.1 in a cmall degree, but it could have been a more important feature.
On the ?Character Maker? form (push Edit character) you may make a few choices:
-Game system
-Display Race
-Display profession
On the ?Choose/add skills? form you may select to display SM and/or RM skills.
On the ?Equipment? you may choose to display SM and/or RM equipment.

This could be expanded into more fine grained categories.
Several cost types could be given to each skill, and then you must choose which type of cost that applies for the character.
Skill progression (skill bonus pr Rank in SM2 terms) can be a configurable between pre-set options.
I don?t know how the RM skill types (E,R,O) works, but as far as I understand this is based on profession and race, and then later modified. So this is also a question about data, then adding some rules for modification.

-Terry

[markc]

Terry,
 The skill types (E,O,R) work like skill rank multipliers, so E=skill ranks x2, O=skill ranks x3, and R= skill ranks x1/2. Sometimes it is also nice to have a slot for items to give ranks in a skill, such as for a computer bonus. This can be done by a +bonus or a # of ranks. The # of ranks fits better with the rules but it can be hard to implment. Some times you just have two entries for the skill, the first for non-suppot and the second for computer support or data base support.

 As for the Char Gen sheet, I have allways thought it would be good to have an easy version and a GM version. the GM can define all the options they want and export it to the easy version fro players to use.

Good luck.
MDC 

[international1]

Marc

You requests are more RMFRP and this sheet is more for Rolemaster Classic.  Rolemaster Classic is like SM2 and it does have a purchase system for Spell lists that would apply directly to Psions.

Yeah I don't like rolling stats because it just isn't fair.  Everyone isn't on a level playing field for stat generation and it eliminates the ability of certain players from fudging things.

Another SM2 specific addition would be an automated way to Choose the 2 Skill cost categories for a Semi-Telepath.  At this point, I guess you need to manually enter it.  There should be a way to choose semi telepath and then determine which field of psion which will determine your prime stats and then the two categories of skills from another profession that you are substituting.  Again, I could be missing something because I am no excel spreedsheet guy, but it appears all of these things are manual.

[international1]

Last other addition to SM2 would be Background Points options built in automatically.  Of course, I would prefer the non random type again where you can buy options using points vice rolling.  Again, most players desire to have some control over building their character and randomizing it can yield bizarre results.  Allowing the purchase of options makes a bit more sense.

I would be happy to enter the data into the spreedsheet, but I don't know how to programm the sheet to insert that various skill bonuses in the right places, etc.

[markc]

int1,
 I agree that it is more in ine with RMSS/FRP but I also had a call to use them in my first RM2 game in 98. I had played a little RM2 in 86 but not a lot. It is from that 98 game with all its wonderful house rules and long standing game [15+ years] that I have learned that quite a few people adjust almost anything that they can in the game. Also if you just design the frame work with out the data it will be easyer to give to people. All they have to do is fill in the data and away the go.

 But it is not up to me, I am just providing some input for the sheet.
MDC

[TerryTee]

Here are a few comments and thoughts.
(At the moment I?m just happy nobody reporting problems getting it to run;-)

Semi-Telepath
The choices needed for the Semi Telepath will be implemented.

Telepath
Choosing Fields and skill costs will be implemented.

Simple vs complex sheet
I have not really thought too much about making a simple version of the actual character generation forms. However, my thought has been that the GM can set some rules options in the DATASHEET before giving the sheet to players. There?s not much available right now, but a few settings are valid for the GM to consider.

Background options
I?d like to implement that as well (it?s actually on the whish list in the ChangLog module in the .xls sheet). I?m not sure if it is a good idea to implement a system where you spend points on this, since I suspect many GM?s handle this in different ways (how many points, taking on negative attributes to get more points etc).
I guess an easy way to handle it is to simply implement a form where you may look up all the different available background options. Then the player/GM considers if they are selected or rolled, and a count/buying procedure is kept separate.
I also think it may be quite complex to implement a system where the background options actually are applied to the character. This implies that the text in the background options can be interpreted by the program, and this is not straight forward.
Example:
?Add a +15 special bonus for one secondary skill? means that a table must be shown where the player can select a skill, and the program must insert a +15 bonus to that skill (if the skill is not already selected, then the skill must be added to the SKILLSHEET). It may be easier for the player to enter 15 in the correct cell later on.

Skill categories
I not that I have a somewhat custom set of skill categories. I?m not actually sure where it comes from (this has evolved over many years), but I suspect a mix between SM2, SM Companion 1 and probably some RM2.
I?m not sure if it an actual problem, except that the Semi-Telepath needs to choose two SM2 skill categories, and the CharMaker does not actually have SM2 skill categories? (I think perhaps the No Profession is similar).
Not sure if anything should be done here.

Regarding flexibility and data
I agree that GMs and players tend to change things (rules) around a lot. This is one reason why I have not implemented too much support for buying stuff, and why I suspect it may just as well be handled manually (one exception is the support framework for buying skills on the SKILLSHEET, which I quite like).
Having a program without data is quite difficult, since it is very vulnerable to data errors. One options is to allow the GM to perform certain configurations of the data, and then let that drive changes in how the program works.
In CharMaker 5.1 the GM (or player) is free to manipulate the data in the database file (SMRM2DB.xls) in order to insert custom skill costs or Level bonuses, and even new Professions, Races and Skills can be added (with a bit of care).
Not quite sure where to go here, but it is quite possible to support multiple different skill costs for different systems, or to support E, O, R in addition to skill costs.

-Terry

[markc]

TerryTee,
 One note of the secondary skill, IMO you would have the PC pick the skill on the other sheet and that would define the cell and it would work from there. The problem might be if you add a secondary skill to the list and it does not up date the list on the background options page. 

 It sounds as it you have the tiger by the tail and everything is right with the world.

Good Luck
MDC

[international1]

Glad to hear about selecting SM2 Categories.  As for the Categories, I haven't vetted them yet, but the SM2 Companions break out the skills in a similar way to how you have them which varies quite a bit from the basic SM2 rules.  Obviously, to ensure play balance issues are respected for No Professions and Semi-Telepaths it would make sense to ensure there are no significant issues.

I also found that the sheet doesn't seem to keep track of development points as I spend them which means I need to calculate it on paper to ensure I don't use more than I have.

As for Background Options, i know you can assign BP to a race and the sheet could be designed to either roll based upon spending a point or purchase.  I guess the results could simply be put in a seperate box for the player to manually input, but if you fully defined the Background Options I know that it could be automatic.  At this point, the problem is that many of the options require input and/or player choice.  The player can choose option a or option b.  This could be done in a spreadsheet, but it is programming that I could never do.

[TerryTee]

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence markc;-) I don?t mean to sound bombastic, I just write down my thoughts so that those who?s interested can comment and create new ideas and spin offs. I?m very happy to receive feedback, so just keep them coming if you have more.

Int 1,
I had a look, and my categories seems to be the one for Companion 1. This will sort of an issue with the Semi Telepath? Since there are many more skills in C1 them SM2 Players, one option is to allow for more then 2 categories to be chosen. Again, since there are more skills and categories in C1 it will not really work to just do a mapping of the categories for the purpose of the secondary professions for the Semi Tel.

Development points (are supported already)
This is supported on the SKILLSHEET. Have a look at the two combo boxes menus and the three bottom buttons on the menu on the SKILLSHEET. These control what I call a support framework for adding skill ranks.
You need to enter the first level and the number of levels you are going to assign skill ranks to (for a new character starting on level 4 you would enter 0 and 5 in the two combo boxes).
Then you click ?Show support columns to add skill ranks?, and several columns will show up to the left of the Total column. There are two columns pr requested level (one for Ranks, and one for Cost) and a total column summing up the new Ranks. The total number of development points spent pr level is shown on top of each Cost column (goes red if you go over the DP limit).
You can discard the support framework by clicking "Remove framework columns (ignoring new Ranks)?, or you can incorporate the newly selected Ranks by clicking "Merge old and new skill Ranks".
I quite like this support framework, since it makes it quit and easy to add Ranks for several levels at once. But it has not really bee play tested much, so it might not work too well for others?

Background options
First I?m gonna need the actual background options?
Once I have that, I think a first implementation might look something like this:
-Have a separate sheet where the background options are kept.
-Have a Form dedicated to choosing background options.
-Have a number of points based on the races, shown on the form.
-Let the player select BO categories, and then display the entire table for one category at a time.
-Each displayed table will show the BO description and the dice roll column to allow for manual rolling, as well as a random mechanism.
-In the displayed tables, background options can be highlighted, and an Add button will add that BO to a list on the Form. This will deduct a point from the ?account?.
-Single BOs in the list of already selected BOs on the Form can be deleted, adding a point back to the ?account?.
-The account/points will not be a hard limit, allowing players to go to a negative balance. This to allow for flexibility, house rules, etc.
-Once the player is happy with the choices, the form is closed, and the selected BOs are added to the dedicated sheet.
-The player must manually interpret and implement the effects of the selected BOs (for now at least).

It is quite possible to automatically add the effects of the BOs, but as mentioned this will take some work. There may end up being custom code for individual BOs, the BO?s will have to be split up on the data level, and some will probably have to be interpreted manually anyway.
Feedback on OBs?

-Terry

[international1]

A quick thought on the Semi Telepath issue.  I don't think that more than two categories are necessary.  While it is true the SM2 basic rules provides for only two categories being switched.  SM2 Companion add significantly more skills to the categories being switched.  I don't think additional adjustments are really necessary on that front, but I guess if there were a GM option to assign the number of categories which could be implemented automatically then I guess you could satisfy those GMs who disagree with my analysis.  Even the way, Semi Telepaths are dealt with in SM P I think supports my analysis.

As for skill costs...it doesn't show up on the spreadsheet.  Of course, I am using Excel 2007.  Everything else seems to work, but I have nothing adding the costs up or maybe because I am not really a spreadsheet guy I am still doing something wrong.

As for BOs...I think for the purposes of play balance the old BO from SM2 and the associated companions should be used.  It would be fairly straight forward to reproduce the lists with the random numbers for those BOs.  It also seems that it would be fairly straightforward (at least I have been looking at the issue) to assign costs to actually buy the BOs.  As you mention these could be automatically deducted from the amount of BP available based upon race and the result could be entered.  It would take some work but the BOs could be broken out in the detail required to be automitically entered on the skill sheet.  That part is more difficult than providing the actual definition of what each BO entails.

[international1]

I was able to get the skill point section to work.  Now I am trying to figure out how one adds the hobbies without manually entering it...assuming that was implemented.

[international1]

I also notice that for Martial Arts Strikes and Sweeps you need to add the levels 1 2 3 and 4 as seperate options on ths skill sheet since it doesn't currenlty allow you to buy those levels seperately as you need to according to the rules.

I know I said this earlier...I really like the sheet.  With a few of the minor things I have mentioned I will convert all of my playtesters back to SM2 rules from the current SM P rules we are using simply because this sheet is so much better and SM2 is so much better than Privateers.  Unfortunately, until the Semi-Telepath, MA issues are changed I can't convert them over.  I also need to add Androids as a racial choice, but I think i can do that since it doesn't appear there is any real programming necessary.

[Marc R]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Have an idea point.

[international1]

Well I hope you get more idea points.  Anyway, there also seems to be a problem or user error on the total hits part of the front page.  Base hits are calculated properly, but total hits doesn't seem to work.  This seems to be true for power points.  Neither stat seem to be affected by buying body development or power point development skills.  Also, back to my putting everyone on a level playing field.  It would be nice to have a GM option to randomize hits based on HD which is the old way of doing things or give players max hits per body development pick (up to their racial maximum) or 1/2 the hit die per body development pick.  Again, players should as much as possible be on a level playing field and not be subject to the whims of die rolls during character creation.  This is essential for play balance amongst characters.  The randomness should come in when actually performing actions (ie static maneurvers) like shooting off their mouth about someone elses spreadsheet.

[TerryTee]

Thanks again for comments Int1.
I never intended to convert any player groups, but I?m happy you like it.

And thank you LM.

Races can be added in the SMRM2.xls file if you need to.

I?ve added Marital Arts Strikes and Sweeps as four separate skills (Rank 1 through 4 for each), so that they can now be added and developed separately (this was basically a glitch). I will not implement a system where rules for buying skill ranks in the different MA Ranks are enforced; this must be handled by the player and enforced by the GM (back to my idea of flexibility and too many constraints).

Semi telepath and the number of categories are easily left as an configurable, most likely on the top of DATASHEET.

I have not implemented hobby skills. I did have it in an earlier version of the Wizard? I can put it back into the Wizard, and perhaps it could be a separate button on the Character Maker form that asks for two skills to be selected.

I have not implemented any calculations for HP. My reason so far has been that I roll the dice for this when I play, and it?s up to the GM to overrule this.
A practical problem with automatic HP development based on BD is keeping track of the skill Ranks, what it was before, what it is now, has the HP calculation scheme changed since last time the HP calculation was done and so on.
I?ll have a look at it.

Same thing goes with PP.
Also, I?ve never actually played with PP development, we?ve just used PP pr level as a straight calculation. This can be changed I suppose.
How does it work? On the one side you have Psionic Training for non-telepaths, giving them the chance to buy PP up to a % limit for their stat-based potential PP. And on the other side you have PP Development? So the player have to buy Ranks in PP Dev to actually get PP?

-Terry