Author Topic: Introducing new player to Shadow World  (Read 3059 times)

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Offline foilfodder

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Introducing new player to Shadow World
« on: February 18, 2022, 12:34:31 PM »
So, the COVID pandemic has been good for getting old friends I gamed with 20 years ago back together, some of whom have kids willing to play with us old guys. We started with D&D5E in the Forgotten Realms, but we have dug deeper since, D&D set in Dave Arneson's Blackmoor and the classic Star Wars D6 by West End Games.

The next world I would like to run is Shadow World which I was introduced to in the late 1990s. I plan to use the HARP system rather than Rolemaster, but I've never GMed Shadow World.

I'm thinking I could use the 2nd edition of Jaiman Land of Twilight. Resources I've found on this site which should be helpful:
- The unfinished Grand Campaign, which has NPCs and info on Lethys, Haalkitaine, Nomikos, Gryphon College and a few other key sites in Jamain
- the Watchtowers of U-Lyshak
- All of Lethys
- Navigator and Loremaster spell lists

I'm not going for an epic campaign, just a mini-campaign for a few sessions with new characters between 5th and 10th level. I want to keep them in Jaiman, probably starting in U-Lyshak or Lethys. What other books would be recommended and why?

Offline MisterK

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2022, 01:09:33 PM »
If you plan to have them in Jaiman, I would strongly suggest getting Haalkitaine - it gives a load of information on Rhakhaan and is useful even if you don't plan to play in the capital (if you do, it's doubly useful).

Tales of the Green Gryphon, I cannot say - I'm not the proper audience for the product. It's probably useful as well, though perusing the first couple of adventures proposed left me unimpressed.

Norek, of course, is of interest if you plan to have the PCs play in U-Lyshak. It's kind of a micro-Sel-Kai with a few twists and a looming threat nearby.

If you plan to have them travel, Xa'ar is probably quite interesting as well. Quellbourne can be useful as well but has less potential, I'd say (but probably more immediate usefulness, and Kelfour's Landing is a nice home base for PCs).

I like Cloudlords of Tanara and Iron Wind very much, but using them in 6050+ requires some work since they were originally written for different time periods.

I would stay away from Sky Giants of the Brass Stair and Demons of the Burning Night, as well as most of the early adventure modules.

Offline foilfodder

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2022, 09:08:17 AM »
Thank you for the suggestions MisterK.  Norek and Quellbourne/Kelfour's Landing were both locations my GM ran in her game. I know of Haalkitaine, but my character never adventured there, so thank you for a new possibility.

I'm brainstorming what I want to involve players in that makes Shadow World different from other high fantasy:
 a) Cultures & Organizations: Dúranaki, Linæri/Loari/Dyari, Loremasters, Unlife, Dragonlords, Navigators, Steel Rain
 b) Unique locations: Nomikos, Eidolon, ancient ruins from the past
 c) Hazards: Flowstorms and intrusions from the Pale in addition to "typical" fantasy and sci-fi monsters

I won't use the whole list, but getting the characters caught between the Unlife and either Loremasters or Dragonlords should make for a few good sessions. Lethys, Norek, Kelfur's Landing or Haalkitaine would work as a comfortable place for starting things out. If the players enjoy it and want more I can expand.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2022, 01:29:51 PM »
If you're interested in Eidolon, getting Eidolon and Sel-Kai City is a must. Sel-Kai is *the* city of the western hemisphere. The only problem with what you said in your first post is that it is in Emer, not Jaiman. But it's fairly easy to get there from Lethys by ship (much longer, but much cheaper, trip than with a skyship). Actually, following a trail from Lethys to Sel-Kai with stops in Norek and Artha is probably an interesting sea journey (with the risk of pirates both around Plasidar and Praeten).

Ancient ruins are everywhere. Shadow World is basically a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting several times over. You have interesting places to visit in all Shadow World products, but Cloudlords of Tanara has Merisia, the HQ of the Cult of Ezran, the Tomb of the Implementor. Vog Mur also has a bunch of interesting places waiting to be explored, but Vog Mur really is off the beaten path.

Getting involved with Iylari is probably easier if the players are in Sel-Kai (because several Namari Houses have a presence there), but meeting some even as far as Haalkitaine is possible - after all, Haalkitaine *is* the Rhakhaan capital. Once again, the idea of a trip from Rhakhaan to Emer can be threaded into the plot. You can certainly get Dyari as opponents anywhere, but I personally like to turn tables and have them as party enablers (not all Dyari are sworn to the Unlife, thankfully), and their sinister racial reputation makes them difficult to trust, which is even better (would you trust a Dyar ?). Sel-Kai has a number of *very* interesting elven NPCs (and some of my players still shudder when I mention Ormool :D).

Loremasters are everywhere. Once again, common folk often distrust them or give them a reputation of troublemakers and meddlers (not entirely without reason...), so associating with a Loremaster is definitely a double-edged sword. I personally would keep Navigators at arm's length - more part of the scenery than part of the plot. Dragonlords, on the other hand... there's a reason why five of them appeared in my campaigns at one point or another. At their worst, they are terrifying. At their best, they are incomprehensibly devious, immensely frustrating... and terrifying. They are busybodies who can't mind their own business. They love pawns and PCs make wonderful pawns. Voriig Kye is by far my personal favourite. I love to drop him where the PCs are, as a white-haired stranger, and watch my players scramble even though the characters themselves have no idea who he is.

In my opinion, Duranaki are minor players on a grand scale. Their collective influence becomes significant only if the PCs are in or around Tanara.

And Unlife... I usually present a duality about Unlife: the minions who follow because it suits their own twisted desires or urges, and the minions who follow because they have found the true faith in nihilism. The first tend to be very aggressive, mentally deranged (if possibly quite intelligent) in more than one way, and, in short, ruthless bastards. The second tend to be polite, enlightened, ready to discuss theology and the comparative worth of beliefs, and can really turn someone around. The first will torture and slaughter for fun and to inspire terror. The second will have people kill themselves with a smile on their face. I play with this duality - Unlife can be seen as the ruin of the world, but it can also be seen as the peace of nothingness. A seductive Unlife is often more disarming and terrifying than monstrous opponents. I tend to use Unlife behind the scenes - pawns obeying pawns, plots within plots - if only to fend off mind-reading spells which are plentiful in Rolemaster magic (after all, prisoners can't tell what they don't know). Having the PCs defeat troublemakers, only to discover later that they actually removed people who were opposing minions of the Unlife really sticks the knife in.

If you're not afraid of having the PCs travel quite a bit, using the "plot within a plot" can broaden perspective - start small in Jaiman (for instance in Rhakhaan) and resolve the outer plot, and discover that there is an inner plot with an international scope and travel to Sel-Kai to deal with it. You can also use transcontinental factions such as the Jerak Ahrenreth for that purpose - them not being aligned with the factions local to Jaiman make things even more interesting and difficult to untangle.

One very important point in my opinion: the world does not revolve around the PCs. There are other plots and other events ongoing while they follow their own trail, and stumbling upon events that are not correlated with the campaign plot is, I believe, necessary. The war in Urulan, Ulor stirring in the west and Sulthon Ni'Shaang in the north, trade wars between Sel-Kai merchant princes, the Alliance sending emissaries here and there, and more... even if it has nothing to do with the campaign plot, they set the stage and they tell something about the world.


Offline Malim

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2022, 06:25:22 AM »
As ive written before here on the forum.

If Shadow World is gonna be a thing in the future and still honoring its creator TKA, it needs to be streamlined and put on some online platform and maybe converted to 5e or pathfinder.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2022, 07:21:44 AM »
As ive written before here on the forum.

If Shadow World is gonna be a thing in the future and still honoring its creator TKA, it needs to be streamlined and put on some online platform and maybe converted to 5e or pathfinder.
Depends on what you mean by "streamlined".

And I completely disagree on 5e/Pathfinder. Unless the rules tailoring change the way the D&d/PF classes work, the way magic works, the way skills work and the way combat, in general, works.
I don't mind using a d20, so I guess it's something.

BYW, not that I'm uninterested in a discussion about the future of SW, but I don't think the topic was related to it.

Offline foilfodder

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2022, 04:03:38 PM »
One very important point in my opinion: the world does not revolve around the PCs. There are other plots and other events ongoing while they follow their own trail, and stumbling upon events that are not correlated with the campaign plot is, I believe, necessary. The war in Urulan, Ulor stirring in the west and Sulthon Ni'Shaang in the north, trade wars between Sel-Kai merchant princes, the Alliance sending emissaries here and there, and more... even if it has nothing to do with the campaign plot, they set the stage and they tell something about the world.

While your point "the world does not revolve around the PCs" is true for larger events/conspiracies of Shadow World is valid MisterK, I would counter that the gaming sessions DO (or at least should) revolve around the PCs.  When preparing original material, the GM should take into account the PCs (and their players) to make sure all feel invested and significant.

Yes, it can be hard since there are a seemingly endless number of "evil-doers" that can wipe a party of moderate level characters off the face of the planet in the blink of an eye.

One of the things I love about Rolemaster/MERP/HARP is the "Encounter Level" design aspects that Wizards of the Coast put into D&D for 3rd, 4th and 5th editions isn't a pillar of the system design. Shadow World is a dangerous place, Darwin's Laws will quickly eliminate parties that refuse to retreat when outmatched or think direct combat is the solution to every adversary.

As ive written before here on the forum.

If Shadow World is gonna be a thing in the future and still honoring its creator TKA, it needs to be streamlined and put on some online platform and maybe converted to 5e or pathfinder.

I appreciate your attempt at helpfulness Malim, but your post completely missed what I asked about in the original post.  I was looking for input on which existing Shadow World products would mesh well with a HARP game taking place in Jaiman.

Regarding your mention of your interest in converting Shadow World to a Pathfinder or DnD campaign world; that is not a product I would be interested in.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2022, 11:46:08 PM »
One very important point in my opinion: the world does not revolve around the PCs. There are other plots and other events ongoing while they follow their own trail, and stumbling upon events that are not correlated with the campaign plot is, I believe, necessary. The war in Urulan, Ulor stirring in the west and Sulthon Ni'Shaang in the north, trade wars between Sel-Kai merchant princes, the Alliance sending emissaries here and there, and more... even if it has nothing to do with the campaign plot, they set the stage and they tell something about the world.

While your point "the world does not revolve around the PCs" is true for larger events/conspiracies of Shadow World is valid MisterK, I would counter that the gaming sessions DO (or at least should) revolve around the PCs.  When preparing original material, the GM should take into account the PCs (and their players) to make sure all feel invested and significant.

Yes, it can be hard since there are a seemingly endless number of "evil-doers" that can wipe a party of moderate level characters off the face of the planet in the blink of an eye.

One of the things I love about Rolemaster/MERP/HARP is the "Encounter Level" design aspects that Wizards of the Coast put into D&D for 3rd, 4th and 5th editions isn't a pillar of the system design. Shadow World is a dangerous place, Darwin's Laws will quickly eliminate parties that refuse to retreat when outmatched or think direct combat is the solution to every adversary.
I agree with your point completely - it's always about the players having fun, and i's always about engaging the characters. What I meant by "the world does not revolve around the PCs" is that there is much more going on that the plot they are engaged in and, as such, they can be involved in events, find clues, or get swept up in conflicts that have nothing to do with "their" plot and everything to do with the fact that they were in the right place at the wrong time. Whether they decide to get more involved or not is their choice, but they should have the opportunity to get involved.

That's why I like "big city" waypoints (Haalkitaine, Lethys, Sel-Kai...) : there is so much going on and so many intersecting paths there that stumbling upon a problem you had no idea about seems natural.

Offline Malim

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2022, 04:38:55 PM »
Sorry.

Then I would say all of shadow world is good, but use the new books!
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2022, 05:59:13 PM »
  My GM just started a new SW campaign and invited a couple players from another campaign (non-RM) to generate characters... The GM called me last night to complain that both players kept calling him at work to ask questions and then took up two hours over the phone for help. One in particular, kept asking for things. *sigh*

I gave him my usual talk about the role of god in a campaign. RM allows players to build the character the player wants. Beginning characters even start out fully equipped with normal gear and a couple gold. The background points gives each new player a slight edge over NPCs and the Training Packages are well worth the DP investment...but unless it is crucial to the mission, players don't need to be showered with free stuff. It's been four sessions and the players should be familiar enough with the game to end the babysitting mode.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2022, 11:51:27 PM »
  My GM just started a new SW campaign and invited a couple players from another campaign (non-RM) to generate characters... The GM called me last night to complain that both players kept calling him at work to ask questions and then took up two hours over the phone for help. One in particular, kept asking for things. *sigh*

I gave him my usual talk about the role of god in a campaign. RM allows players to build the character the player wants. Beginning characters even start out fully equipped with normal gear and a couple gold. The background points gives each new player a slight edge over NPCs and the Training Packages are well worth the DP investment...but unless it is crucial to the mission, players don't need to be showered with free stuff. It's been four sessions and the players should be familiar enough with the game to end the babysitting mode.

I'm officially confused now. What is it about this thread that makes people make replies that have next to nothing to do with the original question ?

Just as a reminder, the original question was :
I'm not going for an epic campaign, just a mini-campaign for a few sessions with new characters between 5th and 10th level. I want to keep them in Jaiman, probably starting in U-Lyshak or Lethys. What other books would be recommended and why?

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2022, 05:38:42 AM »
I'm officially confused now.
  For a GM, the various Atlases are useful.
For players, I don't have any recommendations, as the books are more geared toward GM knowledge and include far more details than the players need. I do recommend that the players be familiar with game mechanics as we've always had problems with players coming in from other games that are far more survivable...
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Offline foilfodder

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2022, 09:10:20 AM »
  For a GM, the various Atlases are useful.
For players, I don't have any recommendations, as the books are more geared toward GM knowledge and include far more details than the players need. I do recommend that the players be familiar with game mechanics as we've always had problems with players coming in from other games that are far more survivable...

I am going to keep the players mostly in the central part of Jaiman: Rhaakhan, U-Lyshaak maybe including some of the Zor waste, and Sarlis. I'm planning on purchasing Jaiman Land of Twilight.  Since I'm not including Emer or other continents what content in the World Atlases makes you recommend them?

Also, we're using HARP rules instead of Rolemaster. So not quite as high a learning curve as RMSS, but close enough conversions for the GM (me) won't be difficult.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2022, 10:12:45 AM »
I am going to keep the players mostly in the central part of Jaiman: Rhaakhan, U-Lyshaak maybe including some of the Zor waste, and Sarlis. I'm planning on purchasing Jaiman Land of Twilight.  Since I'm not including Emer or other continents what content in the World Atlases makes you recommend them?
The timeline, at least. Although it is complemented by location-specific information in the various regional books.
Basic information about Shadow World can be found in the Players' Guide, obviously (it's one book I never mention because I started playing and GMing in SHadow World long before it was published, and, as such, there was very little in it that was useful to me, but for newcomers, it certainly presents an interesting overview).

You'll get the various racial profiles in the Master Atlas as well (I'm not sure they are in the new Jaiman - they weren't in the old one, if I remember well).

General information about the gods and major spirits, as well as major transcontinental organisations such as Loremasters, Navigators and the like, can be found here as well (as well as in the Powers of Light and Darkness book, which I would deem less useful for a regional campaign).

There are some information that are available only in *some* issues of the MA, not all (such as the linguistic information). Why those were added at one point, then dropped again I will never know, even though their usefulness is variable and they do not provide any background cultural information - oddly enough, the linguistic bits that were available in Iron Wind (about Syrkakar and Ky'taari languages) were much more interesting in terms of cultural insight.

There is sadly not much info about Saralis, even though it would be a prime location for adventuring. You can find *some* information in Xa'ar, but that's not much. When I GMed in it, I basically had to rebuild it from the ground up - and *of course* my own take ended up wildly different from canon (that was before Xa'ar was published).

Offline foilfodder

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2022, 12:18:43 PM »
There is sadly not much info about Saralis, even though it would be a prime location for adventuring. You can find *some* information in Xa'ar, but that's not much. When I GMed in it, I basically had to rebuild it from the ground up - and *of course* my own take ended up wildly different from canon (that was before Xa'ar was published).

Thank you for letting to know what's in the World Atlas. Since I'm going to using HARP and only planning on a few gaming sessions, I think my knowledge from the campaign I participated in years ago will suffice for Loremasters, Navigators and Kulthea in general. If the players really get into Shadow World and ask for more I'll expand the scope to where the Atlas would probably be needed.

As a side, I do own a vintage copy of the Iron Wind. However, Mur Fostisyr is out of the area I want to contain the PCs in so I don't be using it.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2022, 12:47:26 PM »
Just to make clear: MisterK is right that there isn't a lot on Saralis in the Xa-ar book, but there are some maps and location descriptions. If you're not going too deep, it might be enough for you.
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Offline foilfodder

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2022, 07:31:38 PM »
I've spent a few days going over the Jaiman book. It has been particularly entertaining to read the suggested plot hooks and realize how many my old GM used.

Thanks for all the input!

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2022, 07:53:01 PM »
I am going to keep the players mostly in the central part of Jaiman: Rhaakhan, U-Lyshaak maybe including some of the Zor waste, and Sarlis. I'm planning on purchasing Jaiman Land of Twilight.  Since I'm not including Emer or other continents what content in the World Atlases makes you recommend them?

Also, we're using HARP rules instead of Rolemaster. So not quite as high a learning curve as RMSS, but close enough conversions for the GM (me) won't be difficult.
If you are setting it here, then I suggest you get Tales from the Green Gryphon Inn. It is set in Rhakhaan and can be used as a great base of operations as well as a way to kick off the campaign by using one (or more) of the adventures within.

Also, if you are thinking about using the adventure from the Jaiman book, Cult of the Third Moon, pm me. I have worked on the maps a bit to make some usable for VTT because I have also been thinking about running a SW campaign, but using RMFRP - though HARP is an idea.
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Offline katastrophe

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Re: Introducing new player to Shadow World
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2022, 03:07:44 PM »
I beleive there is a player's guide to Jaiman which should be an interesting read for players so they have some basic knowledge of the areas in the campaign and some of the history.

RM is not an adventure intense game like D&D Pathfinder etc in that they are few and far between.  Most are pretty simple hooks, singular encounters. The Tales of the Loremasters are nice fill ins, the Grand Campaign though incomplete I believe is playable with some work. The adventures in the Norek book are interesting though they are relatively quick to play through. The Jaiman "campaign" is decent but really needs to be filled in with lots of other adventures, particularly since that is really written for characters in the 5-7 range.

The Hailkitain Book is a good filler as well.

I would suggest getting all the books and reading them while putting together a campaign because there are lots of elements going on across the books that could be woven together into a single campaign with PCs traveling from Norek to Halkitain and finally to U'leshak to help the Price regain his thrown, which will bring the PCs into the lair of Sulthun. But it really has to all be read and strung together to not feel like a bunch of disparate adventures.