Author Topic: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+  (Read 1830 times)

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Offline MisterK

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SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« on: September 12, 2021, 02:27:21 PM »
I was checking the SWMA for TL references in Shadow World and I noticed something odd :
- the "iron age" (TL3) includes the following descriptions "the beginning of science and philosophy" (OKish, I guess, this corresponds to classical hellenic period, which is technically in the Iron Age), "regional governments" (depends on what you call "regional" entirely - there were pretty large kingdom entities during that period), "sophisticated metalworking methods enable society to master alloys such as iron and create vast quantities of metal objects" (I disagree here, if only because iron is not an alloy - while bronze is, in fact, and has more interesting properties than iron for a number of uses when alloyed with the right metals or non-metals - including the fact that bronze is less brittle than cast iron, which means that it would be better for a number of war applications, which is always important). Bronze was historically supplanted by iron mostly because of severe disruption in the tin trade. But first and foremost, the idea that iron was used "as is" during the iron age is incorrect - I quote "The characteristic of an Iron Age culture is the mass production of tools and weapons made from steel" (emphasis mine) because "Only with the capability of the production of carbon steel does ferrous metallurgy result in tools or weapons that are equal or superior to bronze". Additionally, "The use of steel has been based as much on economics as on metallurgical advancements".
So it would seem right that the standard (especially for weaponry) during the iron age would be steel, not base iron; Base iron would be used for cheap tooling, because it was cheaper and easier to work than bronze.
Furthermore, the Iron Age does not lead directly to the medieval age - in central and western europe, the iron age is considered to end at or before 1 BC. Its end in that part of the world more or less matches the rise of the roman empire, but in the near east it end around 550 BC (appearance of historiography), and in northern europe as late as 800 AD (beginning of the viking age). And it does not even exist formally in chinese timeline. So its end is likely not dictated by technological changes, rather by sociological ones (this is the reason why there is no "iron age" in China - it transitions directly from bronze age t the imperial Qin dynasty, which is *post* iron age).
Additionally, the next age (improperly tagged "medieval age") states "steel alloys (swords, chain-mail)", which is also factually wrong - both swords and chainmail are invented (apparently by the celts in western europe) during the iron age and become widespread during that time - in fact, it was the standard lorica hamata armour used by republican romans (so, iron age) as well as later imperial romans - but imperial romans made common the use of the banded mail (lorica segmentata) [that armor type was actually invented in the near east much earlier].

What is the point of all this, you ask ?
- First, that the standard Rolemaster "+0 iron" (as opposed to "-10 to +0 bronze") is technically wrong - bronze was superior to iron at least for most offensive military purposes, but it was more expensive (because of tin import) and difficult to work (the fusion point of bronze is much higher than that of iron). Cast iron was probably -5 or -10 to +0 bronze.
- Second, that having the "iron age" centered around iron weaponry is wrong as well : standard weaponry during the iron age would be low steel very fast because of bronze competition. Iron would be used for most civilian purposes, except for tools where durability was a coveted property, in which case bronze would still be used whenever possible.
- Third, that there is something between Iron Age and Medieval Age - or that Medieval Age is actually a misnomer, because it starts much earlier than the "middle ages". Actually, most of the "Medieval Age" description apparently corresponds with the *late* middle ages (XIIth century and later in western europe), which would leave a gap of almost a full millenium covering the roman empire and the dark ages that is neither "Iron Age" nor "Medieval Age". It would be possible to consider the Dark Ages as an actual regression, but that leaves early empires (Rome, Qin and Han dynasties in imperial China, Maurya and Gupta empires in India, Seleucid, Parthian and Sasanian empires in the middle east), which would support that there is an age between Iron Age and Medieval Age that could be called Early Imperial Age and is characterised by societal changes : consolidation of governmental structure, extensive administration, and a drive to industrialisation of production means.

The second topic is about TL6+. There are a number of places on Kulthea that are tagged as TL6 or more. TL6 includes a number of technological evolutions that change the societal landscape (the printing press being the most radical of them, but advanced clockworks are developed, hot air balloons are used, and the refinement of metalworking provides advanced tooling in medicine among other fields). TL7 includes even more radical evolutions (because this is the beginning of the industrial age) the most important of which is the steam engine.
There are a number of cultures on Western Kulthea that are TL6+ : Ubenmas (heart of the Alliance) is listed as TL5-7, Rhakhaan is TL6, Sel-Kai is TL5-6 (interestingly slightly lower than Rhakhaan...), Namar-Tol is TL6+, the Vashaan Domain is TL5-6, Khomal is TL6-7, Clycallah is TL6-7, Dhuria, Ran Tairi and Dalov Ram are 5-6, Raathvaalg is TL5-6.
Any of the TL6 realms could have aerial observation/exploration and advanced clockwork (which have uses far beyond actual clocks), and ay TL6+ could have functional and potentially industrialised steam engines - at TL7, that means steamships and trains at the very least, and potential use of more efficient fossil fuel engines. All this without the need for magic, and without the use of black powder and conventional explosives.
And steam engine is unavoidable if you can have boiling water (actually, steam power was used for "tricks" much earlier than Renaissance, but late Renaissance developed the steam *engine*), so there is no way you don't have steam engines in the more advanced cultures of Kulthea - because the laws of physics make them possible and observation of effect is easy. And none of them (Clycallah, Namar-Tol and the Alliance) would refrain from using it to the utmost - in fact, Clycallah would likely go through a fast technological development phase because of the war. And Rhakhaan would likely try to develop technology as much as possible as well, to gain the upper hand in Jaiman once and for all.
My problem with all that ? I don't see it at all. Neither Rhakhaan nor Namar-Tol are described as "near-industrial" societies. It's as if the TL was based on wishful thinking, and that the more advanced cultures had made technological breakthroughs but were actually not using them (and having magic is not enough of a reason - magic requires special talent and is limited by intrinsic capability, while technology merely requires training and resources that are typically much easier to acquire than the exotic magical materials).

So why is western Kulthea frozen in a "medieval with pseudo-magical wonders" technology landscape ? I mean, even having Sel-Kai at TL5-6 while it has been existing for 4500 years and was rich enough to build *freaking Eidolon* 1500 years ago basically seems to indicate that technological progress is frozen. And I have trouble with that (or rather, I have trouble with cultures having progressed beyond the stone age at all - the Althan evolved into a galactic empire, which means they probably exhausted all the accessible planetary resources during their own history... so where do the resources that were used to reach the TL2+ levels come from ? And if resources are still readily available, why can't the current cultures use them to evolve at a reasonable pace ?)

Offline kmanktelow

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2021, 03:12:31 PM »
One of the things noted about Kulthea is that while it is larger than the Earth it has similar gravity, due a dearth of heavier metals: basically a shortage of metals and probably transuranic's that were all mined out originally by the Althans. (Look at our own history for how quickly we have exhausted materials in various locations.) Volcanic activity during the Interregnum and since has probably pulled some of the remaining heavier materials up from the deeper layers of Kulthea's crust, but it's probably not enough. This lack of materials to make things would likely reduce the ability to 'advance'. You may well find that the Loremasters have also deliberately slowed advancements as well.

Offline Hurin

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2021, 03:44:12 PM »
It does seem like it would be a good idea to have something between the Iron Age and the Medieval Age (the latter really usually denoting the late Middle Ages). Might that middle period be called the 'Steel Age', when the first higher quality steel (like Wootz/Damascus) came into wide use?
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Offline jdale

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2021, 09:39:07 PM »
I'm not sure about previous books, but RMU Treasure Law says "'Iron' here refers to a low-quality steel that can be created by accident." It's not that "iron" necessarily means cast iron, but that it's created by someone who doesn't really understand what they are doing and produces an inferior product. RMU TL also has two grades of bronze, an inferior grade on par with "iron" and a superior grade on par with low steel (+5).

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And steam engine is unavoidable if you can have boiling water (actually, steam power was used for "tricks" much earlier than Renaissance, but late Renaissance developed the steam *engine*)

"Unavoidable" seems a bit strong, given that the aeolipile was invented in the 1st century AD and then it took 15 centuries before someone built something practical with it. Inventions that take 15 centuries to go from demonstration to implementation are far from "unavoidable," and here we are looking at societies that are perfectly capable of solving those problems with magic instead, so the incentive is even less.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2021, 01:54:51 AM »
The practical steam engine depends largely on metallurgy. You need to be able to sustain adequate pressures to do useful work without the machinery bursting. However, even with a steam engine, you don't get much out of it without further machinery for it to run. Depending on how metal-poor Kulthea really is, it might not be competitive with magic, or with other technologies. Wind and water mills function well enough on mainly wood and stone equipment. Steam engines also are not as effective without rubber, a substance unavailable to the ancient Greeks and Romans. It might also be unavailable to the Kultheans, further hindering mechanization.

In any case, any attempt to express technological development with a single number is going to be overly broad. Even where a half-dozen or so figures are given to track different areas of progress (allowing representation of a society that is advanced in medicine, but behind in materials science) must paint with broad strokes and specifics within a given "tech level" may vary considerably.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2021, 03:39:21 AM »
Magic could be a substitute to technology if everyone could use the corresponding effects. This is not the case. The closest you can have to industrial age technological innovations are widespread arcanotech devices - constructs in one way or another.

In other words, I would be OK if the more advanced societies on Kulthea were similar to the nations of Western Immoren (Iron Kingdoms).

About the +0 reference. I think it would be much easier to have the +0 standard set to low quality steel (but purposefully made, not accidentally made). High-quality steel would be +5 to +15 (better alloys, better forge techniques such as multiple folding using two different steel alloys), with cast iron being -5 to -15 depending on use, and bronze being -10 to +10 depending on alloy composition and use (some bronze alloys are surprisingly efficient).I think calling low-quality steel "iron" is confusing.

About dearth of heavier materials explaining the lack of progress. I don't buy it. I *could* buy it if the highest TL was 2+, not 6+, or if TL6+ had been achieved using high-density ceramics or crystalline carbonates instead of metals, but that's not the case. The TLs listed indicate that there is enough materials available to foster progress at a normal rate - TLs do not measure what has been discovered and shelved because it was not useful, but what has been discovered, recognised as useful, and improved on until it could foster a societal upgrade. This *requires* available materials, because otherwise, the discovery remains confidential and the civilisation never reaches the corresponding TL.

I can't see the Loremasters slowing advancement, for three reasons :
- the lower the TL of cultures, the more vulnerable they are to extinction either because of natural blights or because of predation. Survival, especially on Kulthea, requires technological evolution to fend off agressions.
- Loremasters are about preserving knowledge, but hiding knowledge is the same as destroying it, except it has a more sinister and selfish intent. Being cautious about *providing* knowledge, yes, obviously. *suppressing* knowledge is not their creed - Nomikos would not exist if it was.
- Loremasters refrain from interventionism. They are cautious about *providing* knowledge, but if something happens, it happens. Actively sabotaging technological evolution is about as anathema to their standard behaviour as can be.

Now that doesn't mean that "actively slowed evolution" is not a possible cause - it just means that the Loremasters are not those doing it. I can easily see the Ahrenreth, or Unlife cults, actively trying to suppress knowledge and technological innovation, because, well, reason 1 above : predation is easier if the prey cannot fight back effectively. On the other hand, technological innovation can also *foster* predation if properly steered, so it can be a useful tool as well. But innovation has a way to resurface very quickly after being suppressed. Most of the time, innovation doesn't exist because a single individual had a genius idea while other people were so far behind that they couldn't grasp the concept - it exists because many people were more or less on the cusp of discovery and one of them stepped forward, by intuition, dedication or luck.
Even on Kulthea, the Jinteni and Wôrim went to higher TL in a similar timespan (if I remember correctly, Wôrim reached TL9 while Jinteni went even higher). Wôrim went from basically stone age to TL9 in 10k years, which is on par with an earth-like progression. My problem is that Sel-Kai was apparently TL5 1500 years ago and *still is* !

And magic is not the answer, once again - large-scale industrial magic requires having enough talented persons trained the right way and powerful enough to do the job while they could use that very power for their own benefit. Large-scale industrial use of technology requires refining a tool replicating it, and training people on how to use it. People on Kulthea developed advanced tools for that very reason - because magic could not be relied upon.

So I'm still baffled. I have two possible explanations currently, with neither being entirely satisfying :
- all current kulthean races are more or less distant relatives of althan slave-races (if you except Taranians). Althans genetically engineered those races to be efficient at what they were expected to do. Innovation was not a desired trait, so this was not part of the genetic setup of the slave races. Whatever capability for innovation exists is either residual (the Althans did not go to extremes trying to *suppress* innovation capabilities) or due to later mutations.
- the lack of fast innovative track is due to the Eyes - they way they manipulate the Essaence fields has a side effect on people's thought patterns. Progress *does* occur, but more slowly, for some reason. This was potentially a *desirable* secondary effect from Utha's perspective : if the surviving Essaence Lords could not innovate, they were stuck with whatever they had - scavengers of a dead civilisation, unable to leave. The effect could be specifically tailored for the Althans, and less effective on slave races - which would explain why slave races *can* innovate (albeit slowly), while the K'Taa'Viiri lords were unable to progress at all apparently. This could also explain why Ondoval is so dead-set on removing the Eyes - as a former member of the Daenku Ahrenreth, he knows what they do. As a corrupted, insane overlord, he sees them as a limit to his own power and destiny.

Offline Neee-Wom

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2021, 04:30:57 AM »
Sometimes I have discussed the part of advances with TKA and my solution was to reduce the scale of ages, instead of 6000 years of TA I just cut in half and only 2500-3000 years have passed since Wars of Dominion. I will call my game IMK (In my Kulthea).

About the Iron Age I just consider it's a convention to stablish certain advancements, we do not need to read it literally.

Regardin other scientific advances:
  • Bronze: I'm not sure about it, I was reading some documents pointing that it was superior to iron, not steel and it was more prone to break as a tool or weapon.
  • General advancements, like steam: Namar-Tol has Airships, so they know about steam, the question is how much it would improve their life if they have a servant class and probably their demographic growth is minimal, is an elf impressed with a loom or would they prefer artisan?
  • The role of magic: Advancements like Eidolon are basically magic, with some technology. It is quite normal to me that some advancements cannot be replicated without having somebody with the same level. Like if you can explain the process of float glass but you have no materials that can work at such high temperatures.

So let's go to Loremaster role and other "good" forces vs the bad guys. In my game, the main role of Loremasters is to teach, open schools, literacy, etc. but they take care explaining that some advances are less desired, so they talk a lot about philosophy and ethcs, caring less about other advancements, like giving steel making to a war torn country or creating interest in metallurgy if the best way to extract metals is slavery.

IMK the Loremaster have a good grasp about combustion and steam but know that Essaence can disrupt the chemical reactions, and also they know it can be destructive for the ecosystem. Gods can give the same advice to high level clerics.  The bad guys are the opposite, they will destroy any knowledge about free thought but will gladly explain that if you cut the wood you can make a lot of ships for the invasion of your neighbour.

My two cents
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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2021, 08:45:49 PM »
Mister K, to my mind, your second explanation seems the most probable/usable.  It may not be perfect & account for every detail (what explanation for a complex problem ever does?).  Perhaps that is all that is needed to explain this issue.  For me, it explains things enough to justify the cultures presented in SW.  Which then makes the world playable for the purposes of our wonderful RPG.

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Offline MisterK

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2021, 06:07:44 AM »
Mister K, to my mind, your second explanation seems the most probable/usable.  It may not be perfect & account for every detail (what explanation for a complex problem ever does?).
Well, the correct explanation usually accounts for every detail, by right of being the correct one :) But this second rationale has an interesting side effect with the theft of the Northern Eye - the dampening of technological innovation rate is reduced (and the Ahrenreth crystal cannot compensate for this because it was not created with that in mind). So there could be a number of "eureka" moments in the near future: all those people who were on the cusp of an innovation but could not get past the last hurdle would suddenly find themselves thinking "just a bit clearer".

But I don't know... it seems an easy cop-out to me, a way to say "it's magic !" and sweep it under the rug, which does not sit well with me. Even if it makes some kind of sense.

As for compressing the timeline, I would readily agree with that (it solves sooo many problems), but sadly, I can't do it: all my campaigns share the same "world state", and since I've used the official timeline (well, at least the time scale) since the beginning, I'm stuck with it now. Which means I'm adding to it all the time, "filling it up" so that hugely long stretches of history are not devoid of trivial things such as rise and fall of kingdoms (when you take Haestra, for instance, the timeline post-Empire seems remarkably uneventful compared to the western European timeline after the Roman Empire... it just does not seem right not to have dozens of kingdoms duking it out every few years or so).

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2021, 12:52:57 PM »
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Well, the correct explanation usually accounts for every detail, by right of being the correct one :)

Certainly.  I can't argue with that logic :D  My point is, however, that the problem (as presented) is a very complex one.  We are essentially talking about the Anthropology of technological development.  One could spend a lifetime researching and studying this topic in our world (with our real-world cultures) & not come a "correct explanation that accounts for every detail".  Yet here we are speaking of Kulthea, an imaginary world that adheres to some of the same natural laws as our world, but also has many fundamentally different natural laws that make it a completely different, & I would argue, a far more complex world to attempt to reduce to a "grand anthropological theory of everything".   I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that I think there will always be pieces missing from the puzzle or perhaps pieces that don't quite fit into the "best explanation we can find".  Unfortunately, Science often settles for the "best explanation we can find at the moment" that does its best at explaining things, but isn't perfect & might not account/explain every detail.  But life continues onward, even though the greatest minds in the world still can't get Quantum Mechanics & Relativity to play nice together (for example).

I come from an Epistemology background (Epistemology is the Philosophical discipline that studies the Theory of Knowledge - i.e. how we Know what we Know & why we can say that something is either True or False).  Epistemology seeks absolutes (Truth vs. Falacy), but allows for degrees of understanding (note, in Epistemology these "degrees" are not considered as "Knowledge").  The term used for these bits of information that can not be ruled Absolutely True or Absolutely False are termed "Belief".  And I can tell you this, given the Epistemological definition of Knowledge, I only Know nine things (which is better than Socrates, I might add.  He said that all that he Knew was nothing at all :lol: ).  Everything else is Belief.  My point is this (so as to avoid an entire Philosophical Meditation on the Theory of Knowledge), most of what we "know" is really only Belief Justified to a High Degree.   Your question needs to be: what level of Justification for your "right answer" do you require in order to be satisfied that your "current theory of Kulthea's Technological/Anthropological Developmenyt" works for your game?  Once you understand that, you then need to figure out what parts of your "current theory" are still problematic & focus on solving/accounting for them.

As I said above, for my own Epistemological/Gaming needs, your second explanation satisfies my own "Required Level Of Justification".  But we're all here to help bounce around ideas to help you reach your own "Required Level Of Justification."  And hey, we might all discover some amazing new things in the process!

Hope that helped & didn't muddy the waters even more for you…

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Offline Nightblade42

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2021, 12:57:02 PM »
To me, from what you have previously said, your issue is the "It's magic, that's all" explanation that you have an issue with.  So the problem seems to be in a firmer explanation of the magical mechanics of the Rolemaster system and/or of Kulthea.  Perhaps that is where we need to concentrate our efforts in order to further this conversation.

Thoughts?

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Offline Hurin

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2021, 01:47:49 PM »
... Science often settles for the "best explanation we can find at the moment" that does its best at explaining things, but isn't perfect & might not account/explain every detail...

I would say science always does that!

I don't mean that to be an anti-science comment; I love science. I just mean that by definition, scientific theories are just theories. They are always subject to being disproven by contrary evidence. If not, they wouldn't be science.

I do agree that the Kulthean timeline seems overly long, especially from a historical perspective. The way I negotiate that is I usually don't go into too much detail. When were the Wars of Dominion? Thousands of years ago. The Lords of essence? Thousands of years before that. Different loremasters will debate exactly how long, but that's all speculation (no one is doing radiocarbon dating after all).
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Offline MisterK

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2021, 07:59:34 AM »
I do agree that the Kulthean timeline seems overly long, especially from a historical perspective. The way I negotiate that is I usually don't go into too much detail. When were the Wars of Dominion? Thousands of years ago. The Lords of essence? Thousands of years before that. Different loremasters will debate exactly how long, but that's all speculation (no one is doing radiocarbon dating after all).
The problem with that is that some of the Loremasters were there at least from the beginning of the Second Era (Kirin T'Thaan, at the very least). Loremasters have a first-hand knowledge repository of what happened and when. Of course, they don't know all the details - you have to be there either to record yourself or to copy existing records and transport them to Karilôn (and/or Nomikos) for Knowledge preservation - just like what they did at the end of the Emerian Empire. In a similar way, Namar-Tol has a living memory that goes back at least from the time they sailed off the empire of a Thousand Dawns wast to Emer (Emer II, Namar-Tol / Government / The Prince and Princess), which means they can map at least 9500 years of memory - and they know how to, and love to, write.
Even in mortal cultures, some places have gone for thousands of years without the kind of civilisational disaster that would suppress written knowledge (think Sel-Kai, for instance). Of course, the "common man" (literally speaking) knows little about history beyond a handful of generations before their own, but for people who know how to read, and who are interesting in knowing, the information exists and is somewhat available.

But my main point about an extended timeline is that it is mostly empty. When you compare with our own history (medieval western Europe, for instance, so that the information is readily available), you have so many more radical events, conflicts, uprisings, rise and fall of empires, religious schisms, and others than what happens in Emerian history in four times the timespan. If the Emerian Empire is Rome, we should compare what happened in Europe between 300 and ~1700 AD with what happened in Emer between c. TEA 1600 and TEA 6000.

As for my original point about technological evolution and the "it's magic, stupid" cop-out, I'm never satisfied with "it's magic" just for the sake of it. You can't build anything on an "it's magic" explanation. It's basically the same issue I can have with geological and climatic oddities - I'm not against oddities, but I need to know *how* it is possible to have that without magic to sustain it on a huge scale, otherwise it's just another "don't care about it, it's magic, just take it for granted and move on". As a GM, I need it because my players are the inquisitive type, and in order to be able to integrate an oddity into a consistent whole.

(I would really welcome a book about "how it really works" - climate, geology and tectonics, natural resources, trade networks... Nothing about the *game*, but everything about the *world* and how it works without any adventurer in there to steal the spotlight. Adventurers are the bane of fantasy world descriptions).

Offline jdale

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2021, 10:16:25 AM »
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The problem with that is that some of the Loremasters were there at least from the beginning of the Second Era (Kirin T'Thaan, at the very least). Loremasters have a first-hand knowledge repository of what happened and when.

I can't remember a lot of details about things that happened to me 20 years ago. 200 years ago? 2000 years ago? There's a limit to how good you can be even as a direct witness, even with training.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 10:57:22 AM »
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The problem with that is that some of the Loremasters were there at least from the beginning of the Second Era (Kirin T'Thaan, at the very least). Loremasters have a first-hand knowledge repository of what happened and when.

I can't remember a lot of details about things that happened to me 20 years ago. 200 years ago? 2000 years ago? There's a limit to how good you can be even as a direct witness, even with training.
Not when you write about it when it happens.

I'm not talking about everyday life. But historical events ? You can bet they have been compiled. As I said, a number of cultures and organisations survived the last six (or even twelve) thousand years better than most of our real-life cultures. Additionally, there are known magical ways to preserve writings.
The information is there. Whether people access it or not is another thing entirely, but safe locations, literate people, and better preservation techniques all but ensure that the written word has survived the years.
Of course, history is usually written by the victors, so what you have is what happened according to those who won.

Imagine someone writing a diary. Every day of his life. Then putting it in a time capsule. When the capsule is discovered, the information is available. And in preindustrial literate cultures, there were a *lot* of people writing all kinds of things - history, political and judicial records, commercial transactions, poetry and philosophy, theology, science...

Now imagine Iylari doing the same. That is what you have in Namar-Tol, Remiraith, the Empire of a Thousand Dawns, the Vashaan Domains, and presumably others. And that's not counting the universities and colleges in Sel-Kai, Lethys and Haalkitaine - after all, as I said, those are cities that have not been sacked since the beginning of the Third Era (and even earlier for Lethys - since the throne was temporarily moved there during the Wars of Dominion because of the Haalkitaine Fire, you can assume that Lethys was safe(r).

In other words, if you don't want preserved knowledge in your fantasy world, don't have long-lived/immortal races, and don't have libraries that escape periodic purges :)

Offline Hurin

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 12:44:50 PM »
I don't disagree with you MisterK. In fact the length of the Kulthean timeline has long bothered me, and I do like the idea of shortening it.

You make a good point about writing, but note that writing too is an imperfect medium. Books age, get eaten by worms, get lost and destroyed, get 'corrected' and reworked, and need to be rewritten. You might think for example that a text such as the Iliad has survived; but it hasn't. What we have are copies. The best dates from the 10th Century CE, which means it was written more than 1,500 years after the text that Herodotus and the other Greeks of the Classical period were mentioning. Our best record today, then, is a copy of a text that has been copied and recopied multiple times over more than a thousand years. And as anyone who has played the game Telephone knows, the more times you transfer information, the more it gets changed, even apart from the times it gets outright lost due to catastrophic events (e.g. Wars of Dominion).

I don't say this to disagree with you, as I said, just to note that even 'stable' cultures and records inevitably change. Written memory is often as fragile as the paper (or parchment) on which it is written.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline metallion

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 01:51:57 PM »
I can think of -20 reasons no Iylar keeps a diary every day of their life.  Leaving aside what writings weren't lost to this or that war, this or that essence storm, this or that Elor Once Dark mood swing.  Leaving aside what's quickly shuffled to the restricted stacks of Nomikos whenever found.  Or mis-shelved because library staffs do that on occasion.  Even then, that would just give you varying accounts about what happened on any given day.  Look at any news story from today on CNN and Fox.  Assuming they both decide to even write about the same things because different people think different things are important.

Offline Nightblade42

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Re: SWMA, iron age, and TL6+
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2021, 12:18:28 AM »
You also have to take into account linguistic evolution as well.  Sure, the languages of the immortal races probably haven't changed much over the millenia, but you can sure say that the languages of mortals have.  Any of you tried to read Old English lately?  At best, you might figure out the gist of what a sentance says, unless you have sat down & seriously studied the language.  But that's what Anglo Saxons were speaking over a thousand years ago.  They are our cultural/linguistic ancestors (for those of us who are descended from them, that is ;) ).  Same can be said for the languages of mortal cultures in Kulthea.  Are the languages of Emer the same as what they were thousands of years ago?  I doubt it.  Language is ever evolving.  I mean, even in the last 30+ years, English has massively evolved (go back to 1980 in your time machine & ask someone to send you an e-mail, for example…).  So yes, there could be all the records from thousands of years ago, preserved perfectly & saved from disasters - but how many "modern" people would be able to read them?  How many scholars know those ancient dialects & how long have they had to study in order to understand the linguistic idiocyncracies of the ancient dialects?  This also affects how much "past knowledge" is available to the "general public".  There are probably many tomes & rolls of parchements in many "repositories of knowledge" that have yet to be studied/translated/understood.  So how complete of a historical picture is available to the "experts"?  And how much of this knowledge is disseminated to the "general public"?

More things to think about, I guess :)

Nightblade ->--