Author Topic: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility  (Read 1502 times)

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Offline Implementor

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Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« on: June 22, 2021, 04:27:41 PM »
Any thoughts?

While conceptualizing a Namar-Tol Loari I came up against this question while thinking about what her childhood and adolescence would be like. Would there be any other Loari children somewhat within the same age range? This would affect early education and more importantly socialization. I tried to 'math' it out a bit, but since it's a character that will never be used I fudged it and just assumed there were at least a couple that could be peers/friends =p

So I started thinking about Immortal races infertility....not really why would it be that way, whether evolved or created, a low-birth rate for an immortal species seems logical, but the reasons underpinning it (which go beyond the mere cultural).

My first thought was that the females have an entirely different menstrual/ovulations biology. Maybe they are fertile only once a year or 5-years or decade. Further complicating it, maybe they're only fertile for 1 week every year, or fertile for a whole year but only every decade. It could be ovum aren't present at gestation but only start developing at some point in maturity. Orrr what if they have a finite number of ovum but have potentially to spread them out over 1000s-10000s of years  (I guess this is more cultural, family planning style)

On the male side you have spermatozoa motility and production. Maybe the spermatozoa are immature for long periods of time and like above are only viable for a short period of time every long-period of time.

If it was both, then that would further hamper/complicate things as a mated-pairing would have to wait and coordinate their own fertile-cycle which may occur in 1 year or 20 years.


Some Shadow World complicating factors:

It seems a lot easier for a humans and elves to sire progeny than elven-elven pairings. Which sorta makes some of the postulations above problematic.
(I have the wiki open for menstrual cycles and spermatozoa, there's a LOT of chemical and hormonal aspects to it all to say the least. I suppose human sperm/ovum may be more susceptible to fertility even in regards to elven biology, where the chemical nuances have to be just-so for an elven-elven birth)

An entry in the timeline shows Tethior and his brother being born within 2 years of each other. That's what a six-month re-pregnancy time?


In game-terms I suppose it doesn't matter, but honestly there's actually ideas for 'adventures'/plots that could be formed around knowing how such works. As well as coming up with cultural norms (would a the whole Loari population of Namar-tol celebrate the birth of a new child?)
Also, I don't expect an official, this is how it works in SW-answer hehe. I overthink this setting big time (as will be apparent from some follow-up posts, but feel like engaging with it with others so thought I'd throw it out there and see if anyone ever put any thought into it.

Online jdale

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2021, 04:39:52 PM »
If you can influence fertility with magic and magical herbs, which is probably the case, then cultural choice may be at least as important as fertility. How many kids do you want to have? How long do you remain involved with the life of your children? That's a big deal if the answer is centuries. Do you want to have your kids around the same time so they have the experience of being siblings? (Might be the case with Tethior.) Or spread them out?
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2021, 10:09:44 PM »
The setting I've been toying with over the years one of the oddities I've done with the Elven races is they choose when to have their children and they always have twins when they do, one male and one female.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 12:42:20 AM »
In my campaign world (not Shadow World) the elven females are fertile every spring equinox. Elven males have extremely low sex drive and tend to make themselves scarce. In their absence, many females will choose to mate with a human male - there are no half-elves with an elf father.
We ask the hard questions here, because they keep us too busy to worry about the hard questions in the real world, and we can go with the answers we like the best.

Offline metallion

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 10:11:22 AM »
The way I run things, fertility management is among the most trivial of magics, especially for Namarians.  Elven sex drive is high, and Namariann pleasure gardens yield to no one as a playground.

Elven desire to have children is what's low.  Human mortality drives human reproductive drives - once again as differentiated from sex drives.  Humans only have a few short decades to have children, even the Zor or Kinsai only get a century or so.  Elves have much longer and that informs the urgency of children.  Thus clusters close together or individuals spaced apart are matters of personal priority.

Offline Implementor

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2021, 05:47:05 PM »
mmmmmmm thanks for your answers. Interesting to see others have engaged the question and the various individual answers.

Personal Priority informed by immortal biology
Low sex drive- I like it. Possibility should have occurred to me
Twins- A nice cultural addendum
Magic/Drugs affecting fertility- a yes, I've become over cautious I think in my magic-tech, because unlike many who have posted I think there should be more of it/more common

I think one of my mmmmm assumptions was that since they are low reproduction AND living in a world where they can be crowded out by the mortal populations that they would be a lot more inclined to generate new members of their species (like they're all racially conscious and believe the same things O_o simplistic thinking)

Thanks peeps

Online jdale

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2021, 06:03:12 PM »
In the real world, there are an increasing number of nations that are dealing with decreasing numbers of children being born, and struggling to find ways to motivate people to have kids. It's a big investment of time and attention, and takes away from many of the other things we are told we are supposed to want to do (whether that's have a career, travel, create, etc). https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/22/world/global-population-shrinking.html

So it doesn't necessarily follow that, just because a society thinks they would be better off with more children, that they will actually achieve it. For Tolkien-style elves, who are reaching the end of their era, it might make sense for their numbers to be on the decline. Other societies might have found ways to stabilize themselves, which probably include encouraging childbearing in various ways.

It also depends on how people support themselves. Farming families tend to be bigger because that's your labor, there's a real incentive to have more kids. If young elves end up as labor or apprentices to their parents, that might also create an incentive. If they go do their own thing, there's less of that motivation.
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Offline metallion

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2021, 06:09:51 PM »
Elves also have an environmental awareness that most humans don't, and live in places that place limits on how many people the land can support: Namar Tol on an island, the Rhemiraith in a forest whose growth is restricted by human populations.

Offline Implementor

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2021, 06:32:08 PM »
It's interesting to have your own Blindspots/preconceptions/prejudices and failures of thinking highlighted and/or destroyed.

Labour-intensive pre-technological farming families tend to have more children. This is something I really should have considered since it's so obvious from our own world

I think my basic 'problem' is that I like my immortal races, and I'm projecting my own I-want-them-to-be-around-and-not-fade-into-myth-or-go-extinct upon them. It allllways bothered me that Tolkein's Elves were in decline and at the end of their era- well, do something about it! =p.

Small realms so limited space is a consideration I actually sort of engaged with, buuuuut I engaed with it (in regards to Namar-Tol) in sorta the opposite way. There's only what 20000 Loari there? Even with there slave retinues seemed to me there was considerable room for growth while without over populating/wrecking their environment. But thennnn I didn't actually calculate the land mass area and investigate population density and maintenance factors.

There's a plot point in there somewhere for a group of militant 'racial-nationalists' Iylari/Dyari taking up a 'we-need-to-increase-our-numbers-to survive Idealogy' and the subsequent ramifications

very cool. Thank you

Offline metallion

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2021, 09:30:41 PM »
Another factor to consider is that all the Elves of Emer and Jaiman are colonists -- the Empire of a Thousand Dawns and the Vashaan are older and likely larger. 

Differences in opinion about ecological balance are likely one of the things that inspired the Dyari of the Namarian settlement to move on and seek underground places to live.  And we have no idea how large the Dyari domains are.

Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2021, 05:20:19 AM »
On the one hand, it's a fantasy environment there doesn't have to be a reason; just handwavium it with a magical reason. On the other hand, if you want to get practical, gestation is linked to the size and life span in most mammals and the fertility rate is a function of life expectancy. In other words, there is an evolutionary advantage and an environmental driver at work. For elves, their life expectancy is going to decrease fertility providing other environmental conditions don't kill them off quicker.

Advantages - 100% of offspring are nurtured and cared for to reach functional maturity. That is to say there is no birth redundancy (children lost to predator or disease). Physical advantages: elves are quicker; more intelligent and more elusive than any other organism occupying the same niche habitat. Meaning, they always have the resources they need even when others do not. Magical advantage: inheriting a magical talent allows elves to do things that give the a competitive advantage for resources. All this supports elves being able to be less fertile than say humans.

Disadvantage: Low population numbers will always struggle against a high population competitor. You can't keep fighting for resources without physical losses. A loss of 100 beings is a big percentage of your population if it numbers in the thousands compared to the millions. Even if a small population are able to meet most of their needs; a competing large population can consume resources and destroy the balance. Think about locust swarms and their effect on local populations. Likewise, elves unable to defend the border of their kingdoms will find humans consuming resources in an unsustainable way and lead to irrevocable elf dieback (where the human population might recover) or elf migrations.

Offline terefang

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2021, 07:15:13 AM »
Some Shadow World complicating factors:

It seems a lot easier for a humans and elves to sire progeny than elven-elven pairings. Which sorta makes some of the postulations above problematic.
(I have the wiki open for menstrual cycles and spermatozoa, there's a LOT of chemical and hormonal aspects to it all to say the least. I suppose human sperm/ovum may be more susceptible to fertility even in regards to elven biology, where the chemical nuances have to be just-so for an elven-elven birth)

An entry in the timeline shows Tethior and his brother being born within 2 years of each other. That's what a six-month re-pregnancy time?

i would rather assume that both elven males and females go thru different periods of fertility and infertility much like a sine-curve.

bonded (married) elves might have ways to sync (or adjust) their fertility cycles for a much better chance of bearing offspring.

still that seams totally oblivious to the cross-species fertility issue, unless someone (Altha/Gods) purposely designed it so.

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Offline MisterK

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2021, 03:14:16 AM »
In my opinion :
- natural (so, not controlled) fertility is basically a function of threats and resources : more threats = higher fertility rate, more resources = higher fertility rate. I know there are a few biological exceptions to that, but they are just that - exceptions.
- elves are biologically immortal, but external threats remain, and Kulthea is a very dangerous world.
- resources vary depending on the location, but also how efficient the resource gathering and management is.

Elven fertility rate should likely be lower than that of mortal races (because, you know, immortal), but not that much lower, because 1) external threats are of paramount importance and 2) resource management is often at least as efficient, if not more.

So the remaining factors are
- available resources (raw)
- cultural factors

And I think that is the point where elves differ from humans much, and even some elves (Iylari) differ from others (Erlini, Shuluri).

For instance, I see most erlini as not caring much about being immortal in theory, because the risk of death from external threats is major. They live long, yes, but the pressure to replace casualties is always there. On the other hand, their idea of resource management is likely a limiting factor : they do not overextend, they do not pressure the land for higher yield, and they will most likely not expand by clearing woods for increased farming surface. Resource availability becomes a factor, but one that is dictated by culture rather than by raw availability.
And it is easy to see how those factors can vary for other elven races - especially Loari and Dyari, for instance, who have a very different notion of "resource management".

The other factor, which is in my opinion common to all elves, is fertility control. Because, let's face it, giving birth is dangerous AND potentially debilitating. And elves, who are very long-lived, rely on their own physical and mental capabilities to survive throughout the years. Long lives also make people think of themselves as individuals more and more. Giving birth is necessary for survival of the race, but it is not seen as a personal need - quite the contrary, it is often seen as a potential risk and a hindrance to individual survival. I think this trait would be especially pronounced among Iylari, leading to widespread use of chemical, magical, or technological contraceptives. In some cases, the "social requirement" of procreation might be an explicit part of the social contract ("once you have two children raised to adulthood, you can do what you want"), but in any case, I can see a complete dissociation of sex and procreation in the mind of elves - sex is whenever the fancy strikes you (which might be often), procreation is a serious affair because it is necessary for the race but dangerous for the individual. Basically, as an elf, you don't procreate as soon as possible and as often as possible, you procreate only when the situation is optimal for survival and prosperity of offsprings, because you don't necessarily want to have many, so you want to make sure every one of them counts.

Depending on cultural aspects (male contraception, overall availability of contraceptives that can be used repeatedly without side effects and are consistently reliable), I can see a much higher part of the population considering same-sex relations as a necessary part of life. I can also see a case where males would not care that much if they procreate with a "lesser race" because the child would not be theirs to bear, literally speaking (elves are definitely not saints).

Then there is the issue of inter-racial procreation, but it is a full can of worms by itself.

Offline Malim

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2021, 07:58:52 AM »
RoCo I has some rules for this!
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Questions and Musings: 'Elven'-fertility
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2021, 11:11:33 AM »
RoCo I has some rules for this!
The problem with the Rolemaster Companions is that 1) they are not really Shadow World-specific, 2) they provide effect, not cause, and 3) they are no really deep on environmental or cultural impacts. They are generic, made for any fantasy world - and, as a result, for none.

Plus, I don't think we are looking for rules here - we are looking for in-context rationale and consequences.