Topic: 4e like defenses in HARP

[Arioch]

As I've already said in another topic, one of the things I really like about d&d 4e is the fact that it got rid of saving throws and unified the way characters' defenses work, basically giving them 4 different ACs.
I think it would very cool to do the same thing in HARP, turning Resistance Rolls into Defensive Bonuses. In other words way we would have 4 Defensive Bonuses, instead of 1 DB and 3 RRs: "normal" DB, against which the majority of physical attacks will be done; Stamina DB, handling exhaustion, poisons, diseases, etc; Will DB, against which all mental/social attacks will be done; Magic DB, against which all magical attacks will be done.
They would all work in the same way: attacker makes a roll, add his bonus and subtract target DB, if the final result is 1 or more the attack is succesful (exactly in the same way a "normal" attack works with the current rules).
Why I think it would improve HARP:
- get rid of an entire column (the RRs one) in the maneuver table
- reduce the numbers of rolls needed to resolve actions by one for each "attack"
- add a lot of tactical options and makes overall more exciting to play things like Skill vs Skill or social, magical and mental combat (they all could be treated like a normal combat, with attack maneuvers, skills used to "parry", etc).

What do you think?

[Hawkwind]

I think its an interesting idea - the attacks against different defenses is something I also like about 4e. However, I can see some balance issues - you can spend DPs to improve your stamina, magic and will but you can't improve your DB as easily. You can improve it my spending more on your weapon skills so you can parry better, but its not as efficient as just buying levels in the other three.

Hawk

[Arioch]

However, I can see some balance issues - you can spend DPs to improve your stamina, magic and will but you can't improve your DB as easily. You can improve it my spending more on your weapon skills so you can parry better, but its not as efficient as just buying levels in the other three.

Yes, to make it work some parts (probably a lot of parts!) of the system have to be reworked... I have no plan to change how things work for now, just thought that it would be cool (maybe in a future incarnation of HARP  ) and wanted to hear what people thought about it.

[Karizma]

The RR table is ALSO used for Skill vs. Skill rolls, so if even if you change the Magic/Will/Stamina RRs into DBs, you will still refer to the RR table.

Or do I completely not understand how Skill vs Skill situations work?  That's a possibility, I'm quite new.

[Arioch]

The RR table is ALSO used for Skill vs. Skill rolls, so if even if you change the Magic/Will/Stamina RRs into DBs, you will still refer to the RR table.

Well, if you drop RRs you'll have to change how Skill vs Skill works accrodingly, that's why I said:

- add a lot of tactical options and makes overall more exciting to play things like Skill vs Skill or social, magical and mental combat (they all could be treated like a normal combat, with attack maneuvers, skills used to "parry", etc).

[Arioch]

Had a couple of new ideas on this topic:
First one is about types of defenses: IMHO the 4 defenses should cover a range of situations as broad as possible, to avoid having to add additional mechanics to handle specific cases. Something like this:
- Dexterity DB [basic value based on Qu/Ag]: used not only to dodge blows but also in all situations related to dexterity/coordination
- Stamina DB [St/Co]: used to resist fatigue, diseases etc, but also in opposed strenght checks and similar situations.
- Mental DB [Re/SD]: used to simulate force of will, but also to avoid deception, etc
- Magical DB [Pr/In?]: used to resist all kind of magic

Armor should be counted separately and could be added as a bonus to any DB, depending on situation (for example it could be added to dexterity to avoid a blow, or even to Stamina to resist the effects of an acid attack, and so on...).

Still unsure if DBs could be developed as skills, but leaning toward no.

Second idea is on how the whole thing could actually work. I'll try to explain it with an example:
Character A is trying to sneak past Character B, who is guarding the entrance of a building.
So A uses his Sneaking skill as OB agains B Mental DB (as he's trying to deceive him, "attacking" his senses).
OTOH B uses his Perception skill as a OB, against A Dexterity DB (as sneaking is a dexterity-related task).

Both may use their OB skill to "parry", shifting it to increase their DB.
In the character A case, "parrying" would mean that he's concentrating more on not being seen by B than on passing past him, while going on full offensive would mean that he'll try to pass through B no matter what, even if it means that he'll be spotted in the process.
In character B case "parrying" would mean that he's concentrating in guarding his spot, in making difficult for anyone to sneak past him. Using all his OB to "attack", OTOH, would mean that he's actively seeking for A, maybe even leaving his spot for a while to go out and seek him.

Results could be:
- A "hits" B (manage to roll high enough to surpass B defenses): means that A sneak past B, accomplishing his goal.
- B "hits" A: B spots A and prevent him to sneak past him.
- Neither of them "hit" the other: B doesn't spot A, but A isn't able to sneak past him.
- Both "hit": A succeed in surpassing B, but is spotted (so B can pursue him, call other guards, etc)

Additionally, to make things more interesting, both could use "maneuvers" instead of just attacking, to gain an advantage by changing the situation.
For example A could try to "feint" to lower B defenses (by throwing a rock against a distant wall to distract B).
Or B could try to "disarm" A, using a lamp to remove bonuses granted by darkness...

Thought/impressions?

[Fidoric]

I have always been inclined to use Skill contest to resolve such situations (sneaking vs perception...) as much as possible. IMO, resistance scores (or skills) are better used for basic untrained resistance (poison, fear...).
The fact that you can increase them as skills reflects IMO a 'metagame' mechanics which makes a higher level characters more difficult to kill /harm / bother which help making them 'heroes' along with higher stats and skills. For all over opposition rolls, I thonk skills contests are more useful than generic resistance skills.

[Arioch]

I have always been inclined to use Skill contest to resolve such situations (sneaking vs perception...) as much as possible.

My main issue is that, as they are now, such contests don't involve any tactical choice: whoever rolls higher wins. OTOH combat in HARP has lots of cool tactical choices, so using similar mechanics to handle skill contests would imho make the game more fun 

[RandalThor]

First of all: there is a way to increase DB, it's called Chi Defense. There are restrictions to it's application which is the only difference between it and the RRs. (Basically, one chooses to either go for the 'natural' DB increase (Chi Defense) or the quicker one of throwing on some armor.

To the topic: I do like this idea and this is my first rough-draft on how to handle it:

1. For the RR to RDs*: Move the Resistance Skills to different skill groups to reflect the fact that for certain professions, the increasing of this type of defense is more natural. I propose: Stamina to Athletic, Will to Concentration, and Magic to Mystical Arts. (As I also think Endurance should go to the Combat Skill category and Jumping should go to Athletic, the Physical Skill category should be gotten rid of altogether. If another skill group is absolutely necessary than make a Technical Skill category and put whatever technical type skills, like clockwork or whatever in it. Otherwise, as it is not availible to anyone, it's dissappearance shouldn't be unbalancing.) The number generated could be used in one of two ways: First as a flat modifier to the attack (to keep this from being too powerful defensively, just have a single application of the appropriate stat bonus and each level is a +1/rank up to 20 ranks, then +0.5/rank from then on), second: by adding it all together (normal skill increase and both stat mods) with a +50 base to be the target number. The benifit of the first one is that you are inkeeping with the rest of the HARP ideology of 101+ equalling a success, while the second one means that you don't have to change how the skills are totalled.

2. For DB: Give Fighters (and other armor users) the ability to increase the DB bonus granted by their armor through increasing their armor skills to high levels, perhaps capping it at up to double the basic bonus. And/or, just increase the basic DB granted by each armor type. (something I think is definately appropriate when dealing with monsters - I think that a Great Dragon's Armor bonus should be greater than that of Plate armor.) Either adding the bonuses of other stats that you feel are appropriate (I like Insight and/or Agility) or a flat modifier (like +20 or +30) to the basic DB would not only make it a more survivable game, but keep the DB more inline with the RDs.

These are just some quick ideas I had, though so far the only changes I will make to any future HARP campaigns I run (none in the forseeable future - poor me  :'() is the deletion of the Physical Skill category and moving the Resistance Skills to the other categories like I mentioned earlier. Though I will - as of yet - be keeping the RR applications the same as the current rules. (I.e., make the attack roll to determine the RR difficulty and then make the RR roll.)

*Resistant Defenses: The new terminology for the resistance skills.

[RandalThor]

I forgot to mention that with the first option of #1 (RR to RD), the racial mods would have to be altered. I would use humans a baseline and make their mods +0 across the board. which means that a -10 would have to be applied to the mods of the other races to get a final number. Yes, that means that some start off with a -5 or even -10 to one or more of the resistances. I believe that the untrained/inexperienced individuals can have a lesser resistance so that the spells (or whatever) would work more often on them (like they should).