Topic: Stun in SM2

[TerryTee]

There is not much information about stun in SM2, so I?m trying to figure out how it should work.
 
I?ve done a search to find some discussions on effects of stun, but did not find all that much. What I found was for RM2, RM Classic and/or RM Express:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=5301.0

The discussion seems to suggest there are five 'stun levels'. It is a bit unclear what these levels are, and the effects seems to be debatable.
Levels seems to be, with MM/OB penalties in parentheses:
1) Must Parry (-25)
2) Stunned (-50)
3) Stunned and Unable to Parry (-75)
4) Down (-100)
5) Out

These levels may or may not include effects like:

• ?Must parry? and ?unable to parry? can be interpreted literally, or they can just be seen as ?stun levels? with different modifiers (in which case the foe may choose parry freely).
• The modifier for each ?stun level? applies to all actions, including attacks
• Stunned characters can not attack at all, and the ?stun level? modifier applies to all other actions.

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The only stuff I?ve found in SM2 about stun is (PB 67)

A stunned combatant may ?parry? to his front at half normal ability (unless no parry is indicated) but may not attack or change face.?

(Not sure what "change face" is supposed to mean)

Here are a few example critical descriptions from the critical tables:
a) Foe is knocked down
b) Foe must parry next x rounds
c) Stunned for x rounds
d) Stunned for x rounds and cannot parry first y rounds
e) Stunned and unable to parry for x rounds
f) Down for x rounds
g) Down and out

Using only SM2 material, not stuff from RM or the reffered discussion I think I my interpret this as such (not counting other patrs of the critical description, like general penalties):

a) Foe is knocked down
Foe is knocked to the ground, and must spend movement % to get back up.
Probably a MM and or OB penalty for being on the ground. Not sure what the penalty is.
Attackers may get a bonus since the target is on the ground (table on PB 66)

b) Foe must parry next x rounds
No penalty to MM or OB.
Foe can use full OB as DB for x rounds, but make no attacks.

c) Stunned for x rounds
No penalty to MM.
Foe cannot make attacks for x rounds
Foe can use half OB as DB for x rounds to parry to the fornt.

d) Stunned for x rounds and cannot parry first y rounds
No penalty to MM.
Foe cannot make attacks for x rounds
Foe cannot parry for the first y rounds
Foe can use half OB as DB for x-y rounds to parry to the front

e) Stunned and unable to parry for x rounds
No penalty to MM.
Foe cannot make any attacks or parry for x rounds

f) Down for x rounds
Foe is on the ground and cannot get up in x rounds.
Probably a MM and or OB penalty for being on the ground. Not sure what the penalty is.
Foe can attack and parry as normal.

g) Down and out
Foe has passed out.

This list does not seem quite right to me. I?ve always played with stun being -50, but that might just be a habit from my rolemaster days many years back.
I?ve also tended to play ?cannot parry? and ?must parry? as literal meanings.

Are there SM2 rules that I have not found in the published material?
Are there some defacto ?rules??
Does anyone have good, working house rules?
 
Other comments?

-Terry

[markc]

Terry,
 I have in general used the combined rule from RMSS and SM:P but I think I can help as I have played RM2 and SM2.
 I think you have all the rules from the book down but you might check Brent Knorrs website for errata on stun for RM2 and SM2 rulings. Or any offical RM2/SM2 errata site of offical rulings.

[I will advise you that I play in a fairly low powered game and do not allow skills such as Stunned Maneuvering etc. And I do use a different combat system but the effects of stun should be the same.]
[Note: if you use stuned maneuvering it will change some of the info below.]
 The way I do stun is stun is 50% OB into DB and no MM posible [you are stuned]. I picture the MMA fighter who is stuned and is blocking on pure instinct.  [I use the 50% rule or -50 to OB which ever is greater but I think that is a house rule] 
 I combine the stun and stun no parry into one set instead of first no parry for y rounds and then stuned for x rounds.
 Must parry means you mjust parry and cannot do a MM as you are concentrating on foe and he has the upper hand. [I know this is a house rule.]

 The other thing I do is each stun-round counts as 10 hits to determin if you stay on your feet. So 10 stun rounds is very powerful blow and you are lucky to say on your feet. This also makes stunners more powerful and useful in a high tech game, which IMO is very good.

MDC

[Marc R]

There was a lot of iffy terminology in play, some of it confusing:

Stun, purely in the core rules is:

Stunned
Stunned No Parry
Down (-100)
Out (Unconcious)

Must Parry is referred to as Stun in some instances, and not in others, making it hard to make a call absolutely as to if it was intended to be stun or not.

There are other combat results that are not stun, among them:

Bleed
Knocked X feet Y direction
Knocked Prone (Off your feet, but not "Down" in the stun sense, so you need to take an action to stand back up.)

a) Foe is knocked down
You could interpret this as a "Down" stun, which would seem too severe, I see this assomeone using common language in an unfortunate way, since "Down" has a specified meaning. . .I tend to call these results "Knocked Prone" results, and not stun.
b) Foe must parry next x rounds
You can call this stun, or not. The major differences being if anti stun things like stunned maneuver work for it, and if combatants who are immune to stun can ignore it. I tend to call it not stun, so that robots and such can be knocked off balance for a moment.
c) Stunned for x rounds
stun, plain and simple.
d) Stunned for x rounds and cannot parry first y rounds
a weird way of writing "Stunned no parry for y rounds, and stunned for X-y rounds"
e) Stunned and unable to parry for x rounds
Stunned unable to parry plain and simple.
f) Down for x rounds
down plain and simple
g) Down and out
Out, since "down" is kind of redundant.

That help?

[TerryTee]

Thanks for your input guys 

Marc:
Do you know is no MM allowed for Stun is a house rule? I could picture an indjued combatant limping away, eys swimming, cluching his arm (at an appropriate MM penalty due to the Stun).

Lord Miller:
So according to the rules, it seems Stun is actually worse then Down, since Stun does not allow any attack. Or am I misstaken here, so that Down is both a Stun (no attack, only half of OB can be used as DB), and a -100 to all non-attack manuvers as well?

Thanks,
-Terry

[markc]

Terry,
 Yes the no MM is a house rule but I will look it up to be sure.

 Ok on page 72 of SM:P it says no attack, only parry with 1/2 OB, movment is OK as well as maneuvers modifed by at least -50.

 The 10 hits to see if you go out per stun is also a house rule that I have had great sucess with. Both with PC's and NCP's benifiting from the rule as it provides a way to lose consc. without going below 0 hits. I also do not remember right now but I think the time they are out is 5 or 10 min but it is modified by race, CO and SD. 

 I play a fairly low powered game to represent realism as much as possible but often my players are in extraordinary events and often my game has a secet in it that allows somebody to bend the rules; PSI, magic, dieties etc. But at low levels they generally hide, scoot and shoot just like the ordinary person would.

 The reason I do not allow players to move during stun and all that other stuff is I want them to be as careful as possible in combat. Also when someone is stunned it provides a lot of drama for the stunned char and the others.

 A short story: I was in essentially RMSS combat in which I was stunned for around 20 rounds. I kepted the enemy mage busy as he would keep stunning me and allowed the others to get him and his minons. 

 As to knock down: you allways have to get up and if someone is swinging at you they get a bonus since you are down. I use a different combat system that is more second by second than the book and being knocked down is in general very bad news unless you have some way to get up and getting up takes time in which you opponet can do many things. Also if you are stuned and down the MM roll to get up can be hard to achieve and the results can be deadly if you do not get back to your feet.

MDC

[RandalThor]

Terry, The 10 hits to see if you go out per stun is also a house rule that I have had great sucess with. Both with PC's and NCP's benifiting from the rule as it provides a way to lose consc. without going below 0 hits. I also do not remember right now but I think the time they are out is 5 or 10 min but it is modified by race, CO and SD. 

I like rules like that. I think I will look into putting one together.......(steal).

I play a fairly low powered game to represent realism as much as possible but often my players are in extraordinary events and often my game has a secet in it that allows somebody to bend the rules; PSI, magic, dieties etc. But at low levels they generally hide, scoot and shoot just like the ordinary person would.

But don't you just sometimes wanna go "ballz-to-the-wall" and bust in and say, "I'm here, and I'm gonna kick your rear!"

[Marc R]

"Down" is -100 to all actions. . . .

So that's -100 to stand up, -100 to attack, -100 to anything you try to do.

Your character, unless they are really high end, likely at this point has negative every bonus, making any attempts to do anything at minuses. (And if you have any other penalties on top of a -100. . . .)

Essentially, "Out" is unconcious, while "Down" is on the ground with stars or little birds circling your head, a character in this state can attempt what they want to, but likely it's going to be kinda pathetic and fail with -100, especially if there are any other penalties in place.

This being the point in the movie where the lead character drags their arse off the field on their belly, or barely works up the energy to press the button on the detonator. . .it's possible to act while down, but it requires "Heroic" luck. Even routine actions are going to be nearly impossible, much less attacks.

[markc]

 RandAlThor,
 Yes it does happen quite often that if the PC's survive to a higher level they quickly out pace the general populace or the skill of the occupation they are trying to overcome. IMO it is extra ordinary events that make extraordinary PC's.
 In my game I use the 55 skill rule for basic level of skills required to use the profession. So your average cop has all X skills at 55, if the PC's skills are signif. higher the average cop it turns into a bloodbath real quickly. But in general their are many more average people than above average people and crowds of ave. people are very bad for PC's.

 Another house rule people like is if you are attacked more than once in a round your DB might go down by -20 and you may not get your shied bonus. I say might because thier are a cuople of situations in which I the GM may give you that bonus. This reflects the impact that foes have on thier target and thier ability to defend against multiple targets. Alos note thier are abilities in the MAC that can override this modifer by 1 attack if you choose that ability. Another exception is if the foe is much bigger than the attacker or some magical or PSI power that aids them is some way. The biggist is the shield spell that affects all targets from the frount but their are also others.

MDC

[Marc R]

Using Markc's context, if you were to knock an average cop to "Down" in combat, they'll be at 55 - 100= -45 to all their "core" professional skills and actions. That kind of smackdown means they'll at best be laying on the floor trying to use their radio to call for help, if they can get a finger on the transmit button. . . When you're at -100 I'm apt to make you roll for anything, including "Casual" actions like pressing a button, opening a door, trying to crawl, or standing up.

[markc]

LM,
 I do not know why but I do not apply the -100 to actions if you are knocked down, I simply make them get up. In some cases thier is not roll required in others such as stun I do make them roll. Knock down in my game is bad enough as opponets get to strike at you with a bonus.
 Now if you get a knockdown and a stun no parry I do rule that you get the -100 to all actions as IMO that is a more severe wacking the character recieved. And basiclly the only actions I let them do is try and stumble around.
 Also as I said many times before I use a custom combat system and a stun round is different for every person based on stats and race. So since I am not using the RM 3 tiered combat round my experience in combat may differ greatly from the people using the offical rules. But I hope it helps others in their game.
MDC

[Marc R]

It's one of the annoyances of loose use of the language. . .

"Knocked down" is in my mind "Knocked Prone" as in, off your feet, no other penalty.

While "Down for 4 rounds" is the -100 status. . .

Crit tables should be cleaned up in regard to that problem.

[Aotrs Commander]

(Excuse me if I'm practising thread necromancy; I didn't see it was expressly forbidden in the rules of conduct and it was on the first page...)



The only thing I do with stun (especially from Stun criticals in SM) is to apply the Addtion Effects of Stun (from RM2 Arms Law page 26) where it suggested that characters getting more than 5 + 10% of their max hits rounds of stun go unconcious. That seems to work quite well.

(Though now that I think about, I'll have to increase that to about 5% since I ramped up everyone's hits when I started using RMSS/FRP/SM:P tables with my RM/SM2 games).

I rule that when stunned, you can't make any offensive actions (rather than just attacks) which boils down to attacks, offensive spells/psions etc, but you could do things like run away or try and heal yourself (at a suitable penalty).