Topic: SpaceMaster Express

[Marc R]

Most of the baseline mechanics in SM are RM. . .You could create a different Psion set up if it's preferred not to use spell resolution mechanics, but beyond that, it's essentially:

New modern/future skills, portable tech (weapons/scanners/etc), vehicles and space ships.

Could "SMX" be done as a smallish book covering just what's needed to do SF with RM, then use the RM rules?

If you assume ownership of RM, no need to once again produce the character generation, movement and maneuvers, stats, skill mechanics, static maneuvers and combat rules all over again. (Reading my copies of SM2, essentially 50-75% of it is reprinted RM)

Something more along the lines of "Modern Law" and or "Future Law"? Small products that add all the needed materials for changing the genre of RM to "Modern" or "Future" without needing to completely re-print the basic rules & resolution mechanics all over again?

[ICEBruce]

So SMX would be done assuming that RMX is already owned?  Not a bad idea but from emails and talks with customers there are a surprising number of players who play SPAM but don't play RM.  This should be considered though but it does partly defeat the purpose of a totally intro book you can just hand someone.

[Marc R]

I feel it's an issue of scale.

Take RMX.


Change the RMX professions to SM professions
Change the RMX races to SM Races
Change spells to Psions
Change the skill set, mostly on the choices of secondary skills.
Change the combat tables over to sci-fi weapons.
Change the example creatures to Sci-fi creatures.
You now have an "essential core"

But SF is big on tech and gear, it's not "equivalent to magic" that's psi, it's endemic, it applies to all characters. Your Pilot, your SF Hero and your True Telepath all use tech. Weapons, scanners, shared information gathering (internet), messenging services, etc.

Add on all the portable technology (Equipment)
Add on all the networked technology (internet, communications network, power network)
Add on all the Vehicles (Unlike fantasy, the car/hover skimmer/aircar/gyrocycle can't be written up as a creature and then otherwise ignored, there are no rules I'm aware of for boats or wagons or chariots in RM.)

Could likely get away with no space ships for SMX, condense it down to a price list "Interplanetary ticket 200 credits, intersteller ticket 1000 credits." and do it in a latter suplement. Space ships are key to "Space Opera" not "Sci-fi" genericly.

But while the italics section would morph RMX into SMX in bare outlines, in the same space, the bold items that need adding would beef it up to perhaps twice it's size. . .and I have some doubts that SM could be done with as few skills as RM. (Perhaps with super uber skills, like "Engineering" that applies to everything from building a skyscraper to fixing a hyperdrive to reparing a pocket communicator, and "Science" as in everything from biology to physics via psychology.)

I just don't see how you could pull off SMX in the same size as RMX. . .I could see pulling off SMX in the same page count if all you reporoduced was the different and new materials, cutting all the mechanical stuff that stays the same, but if not cutting the mechanical stuff, what do you cut?

One race, one profession, no psions, no spaceships, no vehicle rules perhaps? That might work out, but people might find it a little too light on actual content. . .It would mean that to get a really meaty SMX they'd need to get SMX and 3 SMX "Extensions" adding in that material to get a really meaty, detailed SF system. (I think the mechanics pages are roughly 3 expansions in size.)

I guess that becomes a marketing call, is it better to release SMX as a mechanics free add on of new SF material for use with the RMX mechanics (Cost of $5 + $5 = 10$ for PDFs) or to get a mega stripped down SMX with mechanics, and then need to buy 3 SMX expansion packs to get it up to the same level of "completeness"? (Cost of $5 + $2 + $2 + $2 = $11).

It would work either way, and I really don't know which one is the better choice. I do see the "Why do I have to buy RMX to use SMX" problem, but it would let you get more bang into that initial book. The customers who end up buying both systems do ask the opposite question of "Why is it I've paid to get reprints of the action round sequence something like 4-5 times now?". . .back when I was buying RM2 and SM2 I often asked myself why I kept paying for that section of the book over and over again. (I think it was in CL, AL, SL and SM). That was the worst, but I think combat and maneuvers got repeated 3 times in there too.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I just don't see how you could pull off SMX in the same size as RMX.

Which is exactly one of the main issues that has kept ICE from considering it so far....

[Marc R]

But you could pull off:

"Spacemaster Express Addition for RMX" as an add on to the RMX core rules in the same size package as RMX.

Even at $5+$5 for the two PDFs, or $10+$10 for the two print books, that's still cheaper than the core of most sci-fi games.

[vroomfogle]

That's a pretty good idea - what about a a line of "SpaceMaster Express Additions" with the Spacemaster skill set, and a few professions, technology and a few weapon charts in the first one.    Add on psionics, more advanced technology, etc in later additions.     

Then, later on, you combine them together to form SMC.   Backwards from putting together RMC where RMX came after.   Put together SMX and combine it later.   It would get more playtesting/feedback for the Options and lead to a better SMC in the end.

[ictus]

The only sensible starting point as I see it is to create SMC first, ie rebuild the original books.

Then make SMX.

then make a generic game out of the 2.

GenericMaster

GMX perhaps

something I have long since wanted and hoped to see from HARP with HARP SF, but as it isn't out, and due to such gaps my interest has wained, SMC makes sence for myself, but that doesn't mean it makes sence for other or even ICE.

if it does I'll be volunteering for the SMC team now <chuckle>

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

But you could pull off:

"Spacemaster Express Addition for RMX" as an add on to the RMX core rules in the same size package as RMX.

Even at $5+$5 for the two PDFs, or $10+$10 for the two print books, that's still cheaper than the core of most sci-fi games.

Uh.... no.... That is basically shooting ourselves in the foot. One of the main ideas behind RMX was to have a complete game in a single book, of a size that is an easy impulse buy.

The problem with doing the same for ANY sci-fi game is that there are so many different variants of sci-fi on the market that would would have to put a stranglehold on ourselves in a number of different respects.

And if you are doubting what I am saying, go read through the HARP SF forums, and at the issues Nick had to face regarding it. It is the exact same issues that would have to be faced here. He had to put a stranglehold on what he put into HARP SF. Starting with limiting himself to a single tech level.

There is just an order of magnitude MORE information that has to be presented in a single sci-fi game than there is in a fantasy game.

In order to do a SMX product, it would HAVE to be very narrowly focused.

Now one possibility would be, as ictus suggests, create a whole new set of Spacemaster rules (not something I want to look forward to), and then using that set of scifi rules to create multiple small, narrowly focused games, and then using the sales of each to gauge which ones to expand with additional material (in fact, this sort of setup was discussed for use on the fantasy side -- one-shot settings that get expanded if there is a demand for them).

[Marc R]

I understand the psychology of it. . .as I said further up, it's a marketing choice.

To me

RMX as $5 PDF, $10 book, with SMX as a $5 PDF, $10 book add on.

vs

SMX as a $10 PDF, $20 Book (Which happens to include 50-75% of the RMX book inside it.)

seems sorta like the same thing. . .then again, my inclination would be to own both anyway.

If the Sci-Fi book is by default going to be x2 the size of the fantasy book, you can either make it the same size and make it an add on to the fantasy book, or make it double the size, double the price and make it stand alone.

Question is, which one is the marketing win, and which one "Shooting yourself in the foot"?

Two books, or one double sized double priced book? Cheaper, or more independant, which is the selling point?

Honestly have no idea either way, in terms of the general public. . .as someone who tends to buy both, I'd rather spend money on more new stuff, then spend money to get another re-print of the distilled core rules. If the target customer is a sci-fi buff who'd never touch a fantasy RPG book, then the idea I gave is a really bad one.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

And if you are doubting what I am saying, go read through the HARP SF forums, and at the issues Nick had to face regarding it. It is the exact same issues that would have to be faced here. He had to put a stranglehold on what he put into HARP SF. Starting with limiting himself to a single tech level.

There is just an order of magnitude MORE information that has to be presented in a single sci-fi game than there is in a fantasy game.

"Space is big; HARP SF is bigger"

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[ictus]

err...I beg to differ, RM2 was 3 books for the core rules Spell Law, Character Law and Arms/Claw law. SM1 was onlt 2 books, it covered enough to game and was very good in it's own right.

Do you want SMC by easter?

if so let's get started and stop arguing, it will cost as little or less than RMC so it has to make business sense...

[ICEBruce]

Interesting stuff- thanks guys 

[markc]

 IMO you have to do the complete project first and then scale it down. It should be easier as you have SM2, RMC and HARP SF as a guide.
 I would also probabably do a PDF both ways, one with the complet rules and one an addon to RMC. I would wait for a while to do physical books, call it an editing period. To see which sells better and then run a lot of those.

Note: I do not have RMC, RMX so I cannot speak to what is in those products but I do have most of the other stuff ICE has published down the years as well as a few other games. As LM said above space games traditionlay need more word space to get things done unless thier is another tie in. Such as a movie, book etc. If NHMC would ok his HARP SF universe for SMX then you could do it with some tie-ins to other products and cut the work down.

MDC
 

[Dax]

The first SF RPG System I participated was (of course) Traveller,
I was rather confused with the weapon the system provides: Cutlass (right name ?).

I assume that many gamers (mainly the strict SF gamers) would be rather irritated
the same way if they would have to buy Fantasy stuff.
OK, the combat system is condensed, but there are Fantasy monsters, spell lists,
wrong professions and an "unuseable" adventure.

SMX will also get a Condensed Combat System but with different weapons.
(I don't own RMX yet so I don't know if the tables could be of any use for SF weapons,
they will be of need for animal attacks. So it is not that bad.)

So I would go with option #2:

...
SMX as a $10 PDF, $20 Book (Which happens to include 50-75% of the RMX book inside it.)
...

But there are also good argument for option #1.
(Mainly the chance of animal attacks and the encounter of a primitive cultures would
give the RMX a purpose. To repeat me: "not that bad" to have RMX in a SF Setting.)

And now to something completely different:

With HARP SF done, will there be a new sub-forum to replace the HARP SF Beta one ?

One oddity the RMX and EA# aren't anywhere representated in the ICE On-Line Store.
By purpose ?

[dutch206]

I could see a "Starship Troopers" setting as a kind of first contact scenario for Humans vs. Xatosians.  Lots of Psi in that tho....

[ictus]

Interesting stuff- thanks guys 

when do you want me to start...?

[shnar]

There are some things though that aren't really needed for a SciFi right out of the box. Creatures for example, aren't really needed. Most SciFi is about people vs people (or aliens). Creatures don't come into play very much. I'd leave that for an SMXAddition. I'd also consider leaving out Psionics for an Addition. The core of most SciFi settings are heavy tech, not heavy psi, so for an intro booklet, leave Psi out. That will save a LOT of room in SMX for the extra tech stuff. I'd probably also leave SpaceTravel/Combat out for an addition.

So, my SMX would have:
 - Character Creation (nearly identical to RMX just with SciFi Professions and Races)
 - Combat
 - GMing
 - XP / Levels
 - Tech Gear

That could easily fit in under 100 pages. Then I'd do an Addition for Vehicles (space and land), then another addition for psionics.

-shnar

[Monteblanco]

I see no reason why SMX couldn't be done in the same size of RMX. As Lord Miller have stated, most of the chapters would require very little tweaking to a Sci-Fi setting. Moreover, there is no need for Starship rules, other than the basic. Let them stay as plot devices so that the GM could move the characters from here to there. In fact, the implied setting could rule out small starships and force all star travel to huge ships with large crews, which would left starship rules useless.

Regarding the setting, Traveller could get along without one for a very long time -- I played it for years without even knowing there was one available. Not only SMX could do the same, but also could use easily recognisable technology to avoid long gear descriptions.

With clever use of technology as plot devices will could fit all in a small book. Later, you could release the full version as well as SMX additions to satisfy the gearheads and setting enthusiasts.

[Monteblanco]

The problem with doing the same for ANY sci-fi game is that there are so many different variants of sci-fi on the market that would would have to put a stranglehold on ourselves in a number of different respects.

And then, there are thousands of fantasy variations that are not well captured by Rolemaster, and this was never a problem. Spacemaster tried to evoke the same space opera genre Traveller did. Traveller was far more successful commercially and have little or no setting at all in the basic books. Just don't try to capture the whole field in a single book, just a few points and it will be all right.

[Dark Mistress]

Spacemaster Classic is an idea I am open to at some point in the future, but it would need a totally new background.

I would love to see a Spacemaster Classic, it is and always has been my all time fav game the original Spacemaster 1 and 2. As for the setting, well I don't know how much you guys can use from the old stuff. But often what we did was just pull out the empire aspects of it and leave all the providences in as independant star nations.