Topic: Printing and Kinkos

[Defendi]

All right, I finally found someone at Kinkos that really knows the story on printing purchased PDFs.  Evidently, whether true or not (I'm not a copyright lawyer) Kinkos feels it violates a company's copyright to print their PDF for a customer.  Annoying, yes, but considering how often PDFs are pirated, I can kinda see their point.

So, here it is.  Right now, I recognize the names of all my customers, so while in the future I might need something a little more formal, right now let's handle it like this.  If you want to print one of my products at Kinkos (and you bought it, of course), e-mail me.  I don't have a release written up yet, but I'll do so when the first request comes in.  I'll personalize it and sign it with a digital image.  You'll just print it out and take it with you to Kinkos.

When the first request comes in I'll also put a message to printing companies on my website, so they can look it up at Kinkos and see that I'm actually doing this and that you didn't just make up the document.  That should satisfy almost any Kinko's employee.

To figure out my address, decipher the clever bot-foiling code below:

finalredoubt (that character that means "at") robertjdefendi.com

[Elton Robb]

You get another idea point for being Kinkos-FedEx friendly, Robert.

[Cerebus]

I used to work at Kinko's a long time ago doing desktop publishing and I can attest to their rigid copyright protection protocols.  Printing out a PDF to them is no different than someone walking into the store with a hardback copy of Harry Potter and saying, 'Hey, make a copy of this for me.'  It makes sense when you think about it like that but what it really comes down to is that they're covering their asses.

[Defendi]

The great irony is almost no pirate would actually do this.  If they don't want to pay for the book, they aren't going to pay kinkos for printing it either.  Aside from the fact that pirates almost never play the pdfs they download (most of them are just nesters), it doesn't make sense to pay almost $20 to print a book you weren't willing to buy in the first place.  Of course, there will always be exceptions.  Avid collectors with a PDF of something out of print might well do it.

Anyway, that isn't a criticism of Kinkos, they have to cover themselves.  It's just funny.

[Cerebus]

Their copyright protocols have very little to do with pirates and everything to do with Mom.  As you pointed out, pirates are going to do what they do without needing Kinko's help.  Mom, on the other hand, isn't so resourceful and is often surprised to find out that it's illegal to photocopy 50 consecutive pages out of a book she's rented from the library.  I don't know how many times Mom would come up to me and demand that I scan a copyrighted photo out of a book and use it on her business cards or her daughter's bridal shower invitations.  What's even more amusing is when a Kinko's employee refuses to break copyright law and then Mom challenges them:  'Well, what if I just take it to one of your self-service machines?'

At any rate, there is history behind Kinko's copyright protocols:  they were sued for copyright violation in their early years (they were making full copies of college-level test prep books) and got pretty much trounced in court over it.  They've been extremely paranoid about it ever since.

[mocking bird]

When the first request comes in I'll also put a message to printing companies on my website, so they can look it up at Kinkos and see that I'm actually doing this and that you didn't just make up the document.  That should satisfy almost any Kinko's employee.

I am not sure if the letter would do any good.  I offered to bring in the receipt from rpgnow and the person said it wouldn't make any difference.  Another option would be to put in a disclaimer or something saying it is ok to print out for personal use - kind of like the Silent Death ship stat sheets as I have photocopied many of those at Kinkos.  But again the employee might not read it and are just told not to print out anything.

My experience has been a little odd.  The person at Office Max didn't even bat an eye about printing them out - either time.  Their response was that if I had it I bought it and the responsibility for printing it out was mine.

[Defendi]

I talked to them on the phone and the person said that a reciept wouldn't work, that I needed to give out an actual release.  Then again, your problem might be the person you talk to there doesn't know that, but I think most people will realize a release is a release.

[Warl]

The problem with printing PDfs, that the authors intend for a person to be able to make printouts from of thew whole book, is that they forget to put a release Statement  IN the PDF.

Just becuase something is in a PDF format, and sold as such, does not automaticaly mean that the Sller, author, producer Meant for it to be printed out wholey or in part.

PDF is a Electronic Format of the Book. Thats all. It is under the same Copy right restrictions and infringements that an actual Hard copy of the same book would be. If a Company Wants to allow thier PDF products to be freely printed then they need to put a release statement saying so in the PDF. Otherwise Kinkos hands are locked without a provable release statement after the fact.

[Defendi]

Well, putting a release statement in the PDF, for the entire thing, is a big scary can of worms, because of how global it would have to be.  To make sure it doesn't invalidate your copyright, I wouldn't do it without a lot of legal advice.

[Warl]

I agree and understand that...

most RPG books only release certain parts to be copied in the firts place. Such as the character sheet and Gm tracking sheets.

They figure, if you have the PDF and a Computer, and you bought a PDF, then why would you need a whole product copy.

[Defendi]

Also, the reason I've been told you have to try to stomp on piracy when you see it is that if you don't defend your copyright you can damage it (if not destroy it).  So if your permission to copy is worded wrong, you could theoretically lose your copyright completely.  Again, not an attorney, but this is what the publishers I've worked for have told me.

[craig]

Also, the reason I've been told you have to try to stomp on piracy when you see it is that if you don't defend your copyright you can damage it (if not destroy it).  So if your permission to copy is worded wrong, you could theoretically lose your copyright completely.  Again, not an attorney, but this is what the publishers I've worked for have told me.

that's not true - whoever is advising you is confusing copyright (which doesn't and can't get lost like that) with patents and trademarks (which CAN be lost under certain circumstances).  this is one of the problems with lumping three completely different and unrelated things (copyright, patents, trademarks) under the misleading and bogus label "intellectual property".


you're partly right, though - you do have to word your permission carefully.  Not to avoid losing your copyright, but so that you are granting only the permissions you want to grant (e.g. a printout for personal use by the purchaser) , no more and no less.

[Elton Robb]

Yes, Trademark and Patents are very different from Copyright.

[Defendi]

Yeah, I looked it up after posting and found a faq that says it isn't a problem "anymore."  I think there's a tradition of how to deal with such things in the industry that goes back to former versions of the laws.

[allenrmaher]

Have you considered making these products available in POD from Lulu or one of the other places as an alternative?

It is a fairly small investment (relatively speaking).

[Defendi]

The investment would be the time involved.  I posted a survey on it and the desire was underwhelming.    I decided to wait until there was some demand. 

[dutch206]

OfficeMax/Impress prints stuff out for me all the time with no problems.  (Also, I save my purchase receipt e-mails as proof.)  They even do my printouts double-sided on three-hole punched paper at no extra charge.