Topic: "Unusual Acrobatics Uses" action

[LukeZ]

Can an archer in melee with an opponent take the "Unusual Acrobatics Uses" action (Martial Law page 20) as movement and then attack with his bow (with the penalty of a Move & Attack action)?

[Thom @ ICE]

Not during the same round.

The use of acrobatics skill is a single round action. You can execute your acrobatic maneuver as you move away, and then the next round use missile attack, but you cannot do them as two actions in one round.

[LukeZ]

Ok.
Can the archer simply move (away) without a Disengage action? What would happen?

[Thom @ ICE]

By completing a Hard Maneuver Acrobatics skill check, they can disengage from melee and move 1 full BMR away. Pace can be increased and you can move further away but it requires more difficult skill check. If you fail the skill check you can still be attacked and have no parry or quickness defense active since you were focused on your acrobatics maneuver.

[LukeZ]

I was searching for a way to do "a quick jump backwards and shot an arrow through the eye of the enemy".
This is way I was asking if the standard Move & Attack can be used to get (a little) away from an engagement.

[Thom @ ICE]

The official rule would be to use the rules from Missile Use in Melee and he fires while engaged in melee.

If you want to add the acrobatics in - you can allow an acrobatic move to do the first round of your disengage, and then fire your bow during the second round.  Effectively the other guy gets one shot at you, but you add your acrobatic maneuver result to assist your normal DB and then next round instead of running away - you fire your bow.

It's more of a dodge and roll to a safe position and then fire immediately following.

[LukeZ]

If I fail my Disengage maneuver (because I'm hit in melee by an opponent), can I still move away at my initiative in the second round?
If so, the opponent get to immediately attack me at my initiative? This attack would replace his next attack?

[Thom @ ICE]

If you fail a disengage maneuver and the foe hits you, then you are still in melee. The next round you can either try to disengage again, or you can turn and run.  Turning and running allows your foe to attack you as a rear attack for that round - very dangerous, but if he misses you are disengaged.  He only gets 1 attack per round regardless of whether you stay and melee, disengage or turn & run.

[LukeZ]

Sorry if I continue to bother you all... but instead of turning and running (2xBMR or more), could I simply walk backwards (1xBMR) to suffer a normal attack instead of a rear attack?

Anyway, if my foe has already attacked me this round (because he had a higher initiative) and after that (at my initiative) I run away, do he gets to attack me a second time this round?

[Thom @ ICE]

Simply walking backwards, he can simply walk forwards and maintain the melee status.

If he won initiative you should have already declared your action when he attacks.  You can't change your action after his attack otherwise it becomes an advantage to lose initiative.

[LukeZ]

1) My opponent can walk forward at his initiative, so in the meanwhile I could act without being engaged in melee, or not?

2) During the declaration phase I say "I run away", my foe says "attack him".
- If my foe wins the initiative, he goes first and attack me (with the rear attack bonus because I'm running), then I simply run away (if I'm still alive).
- If I win the initiative, I go first, but my foe gets to interrupt my movement and attack me (with the rear attack bonus because I'm running), then I simply run away (if I'm still alive).
Is this correct?

[Thom @ ICE]

1 - I'm not clear on what you are asking for.

2 - Statements are correct.

[LukeZ]

Sorry, ignore n.1.

Thanks for your help (and patience)!

[Thom @ ICE]

No problem.... I hope I was able to help.

If you want to try something new (and not playtested) and get back to me on how it works....

Your proposed scenario - Hawkeye (archer) faces the Black Knight.  Engaged in melee.

Method to Playtest
Try having Hawkeye attempt an acrobatics skill (Very Hard due to attempt during combat) as a Bonus Maneuver.  Use the Bonus modifier result to adjust the arrow shot. 

In addition, permit the move & shoot with a -10 to the attack in getting the temporary separation.

If the Acrobatics bonus comes out to a final result of 73, then it yields a -15 bonus.
-15 + -10 = -25 for the bow attack. 

I'm just playing around with some ways to use skills to add more flair and excitement into the battle, and not simply be a single attack roll with lots of modifiers.  If you can test it out for me and provide feedback it would be appreciated.  Thanks!

[LukeZ]

Ok, I'll try!
Maybe the maximum Bonus from the Acrobatics skill shouldn't be greater than the total penalty from the Move & Attack.

Risking an Acrobatics bonus maneuver roll to "compensate" for a Move & Attack action seems right :-)

[Thom @ ICE]

Don't limit the Acrobatics Bonus... If doing acrobatics comes out as a big positive consider it the benefit of confusing/stunning your foe as you step up onto a barrel and flip backwards to avoid his strike - while firing your arrow as he stands there with his jaw hanging open....  If it comes out as a major negative consider it the impact of slipping on the barrel slightly and leaving your foe unimpressed as he charges you and you don't have enough time to pull, aim and fire.

[LukeZ]

Ok, we'll try.

[pyrotech]

Thom and LukeZ's discussion brings to mind another option for characters looking for a dexterous shooter operating in melee.

I kind of like Thom's idea of spicing up the combat with skills, but until it gets playtested I see the possibility that higher skilled characters could get some pretty significant bonuses from it.  Similar skills such as Ambush and Sniping offer a +1/rank bonus and raised damage caps in limited situations.  This for a high skill character (say +90, about 20 ranks) this would add an average of about 1.5 per rank in limited situations.  A close enough call that it warrants playtesting to check for balance.  I suspect it may be OK and make combat more interesting for some character builds.

The other option I spoke of would be to create a combat style.  It would cap at the lower of the weapon skill associated to it and the acrobatics skill, and offset the penalty caused by move and attack maneuvers.  This seems to follow the example set by other existing skills but may actually be too cheap for the bonus gained.  Most characters are going to be moving less than 40' per round.  So following this idea it would only take 6ish ranks in the style to completely offset all the move and shoot a character is likely to ever need (although if you let it help with the pace penalty as well you would need more ranks).  This is another option I would want to see playtested before I made it a widespread rule.

I think keeping a combat fast and interesting for more cinematic effects works well in some games and keeps somewhat in with the "High Adventure" concept of HARP.

Thanks,

-Pyrotech

[Thom @ ICE]

My concern with making it a Combat style is that people need to develop it, which means it limits the creativity and cinematic actions that we want to encourage.   Using skills that a highly agile character already has developed allows them use their special feats when it makes sense - not just because they repeatedly trained for jump back and shoot.

[Bruce]

Great thread! I actually have an idea that has been running around in my head that deals with combined actions in a round.
I put this out in a game I was running Years ago: I am trying out something new that I call "Skill Combos". In this you tell me what actions you want to combine and I will tell you if it is possible and what your mods are, and how long it takes to complete your action (I was using an AP system). The characters were all still first or second level. A few sessions went by and one player (A rogue with the acrobatics skill) was about to be in a very tight spot between two enemies. The player told me he wanted to try a combo skill maneuver and tumble over the opponent (orc) he was approaching while striking at him. A much larger deadlier opponent (Think Troll like) was chasing the rogue (real close on his tail) and he knew he could not take it on alone. Now the orc he was charging at was stunned from an arrow attack and he would come out of stun shortly after the rogue reached him.
So I gave him the modifiers and had him make 2 separate rolls, he made the acrobatics maneuver perfectly. Unfortunately he was not able to strike the orc as he went over him, but he did roll a 66 ("66" rule ported from RM). I rolled in favor of the rogue. So the troll like creature reached them a few moments later and decided the orc was in its way and killed the "surprised" orc. The rogue used the opportunity to get a flanking attack on the troll like creature. He succeeded, but, he still almost died from the reaction attack of the troll like creature. Luckily the other party members got there in time, to get a serious beating but still (sort of) win the day. What followed with the party trying to cauterize the rogue's 6 bleeders was hilarious.... But that is another story.
The combo skill system I used worked well with the AP system I use. I am not sure it will work with a typical round system. I just might have try to include that in the thing I am going to submit to ICE.
The combo skill system is somewhat similar to what Thom posted above, at least from what I remember of it.

Bruce