Topic: Spacecraft design

[Grimboldfrood]

Does SM:P have rules for designing/running spacecraft, or is this something that is in another book i.e. GM book etc?

Thanks in advance

[markc]

  SM:P Vehicle Man is what you want. IMHO it is a good book but it does need an excel sheet to make it easy for GM's to quickly make large craft.
MDC

[Erik Sharma]

Yes as markc said!
And as mentioned excel is your friend when creating vehicles. I have done it by hand and it's a time consuming business. You often have to go back and make some minor changes you have to go through all the calculations to update them. A premade sheet would be nice but just a regular one works too but you still have to type in every formula but still way better since you afterwards can just go back and make the change if needed and it updates where the changes take effect.

The book itself you can find here: Spacemaster Tech Law - Vehicle Manual

[Grimboldfrood]

Thanks for the feedback. I had a quick look at the pdf preview so it seems to be what I want.

Cheers

[markc]

 Also check out the errata for the book as it adds some more weapons. And I think it might change a formula, IIRC.
MDC

[arakish]

Also check out the errata for the book as it adds some more weapons. And I think it might change a formula, IIRC.
MDC

Or you will need to do as I have done and rewrite the formulas.  Many of them make it impossible to create vehicles that actually do exist in the real world.  One example is that I made a 2007 Dodge Viper.  However, the engine ended up being twice the size of the whole car to get the same acceleration and top speed specs.

AAMOF, I am still working on rewriting the whole vehicle construction guidelines.  It has been on pause for the last few years due to RL and other concerns.

rmfr

[markc]

Also check out the errata for the book as it adds some more weapons. And I think it might change a formula, IIRC.
MDC

Or you will need to do as I have done and rewrite the formulas.  Many of them make it impossible to create vehicles that actually do exist in the real world.  One example is that I made a 2007 Dodge Viper.  However, the engine ended up being twice the size of the whole car to get the same acceleration and top speed specs.

AAMOF, I am still working on rewriting the whole vehicle construction guidelines.  It has been on pause for the last few years due to RL and other concerns.

rmfr

 I would love to see them when you are done if it is not going to be in a RM product sometime.
   I also did some mods of the rules as I just thought it should be this way for my game. I did not really base it on any RL data.
MDC

[JimiSue]

The spaceship construction guide in SM2 Star Strike is about as bad. It really limits your choices and some things are astronomically large (sensors spring to mind). I've done an Excel spreadsheet (somewhere, I got distracted last time I tried to find it so t's still buried in a folder) but I tweaked a lot of the formulas.

My view is that designing a spaceship is meant to be fun, and to be fun you need to have a bit of flexibility with what goes onto the thing - if every build turns out the same because once you've added in all the things you have to have, and then ahve no room for anything else, then it stops being a game in my opinion!

My players are about to venture forth into the great unknown (to them - their home planet isn't exactly at the hub of the universe and the Imperial news service doesn't get broadcast - "Why would we want to show boring news when you can show more subliminally-enhanced adverts??") but I plan to have some planets and races known for producing the most efficient engines or the best laser cannon - and then watch and smirk while the PCs try desperately to earn enough to be able to afford the upgrade.

[arakish]

AAMOF, I am still working on rewriting the whole vehicle construction guidelines.  It has been on pause for the last few years due to RL and other concerns.

rmfr

 I would love to see them when you are done if it is not going to be in a RM product sometime.
   I also did some mods of the rules as I just thought it should be this way for my game. I did not really base it on any RL data.
MDC

I am like JimiSue above:

The spaceship construction guide in SM2 Star Strike is about as bad. It really limits your choices and some things are astronomically large (sensors spring to mind). I've done an Excel spreadsheet (somewhere, I got distracted last time I tried to find it so t's still buried in a folder) but I tweaked a lot of the formulas.

I'll have to dig it up.  I think it is on a Bkup DVD somewhere.

Like JimiSue, I did not like the size consumption of some of the systems.  One example I remember was that the Impulse Drive in STTNG only consumed about 5% of the ship's volume yet was capable of a max accel of 10,000 km/sec ( ) up to a max velocity of 150,000 km/sec.  That is impressive.  Dead stand still to 0.5c in 15 seconds!    Yet it only consumed about 5% of the ship's volume.

As said, I'll look for that rewrite and see where I got before other things distracted me.  However, I will not give any promises since I am currently working on my Ph.D. and working and working around the house and ... ( other RL stuff).

rmfr

P.S. - I have never thought of the ship construction rewrite being in a SM/RM product.  I was only doing it so as to make it fit my old SM universe that I updated to the new SM system.  Then again, maybe it could be used in the URMS and USMS (Unified RoleMaster System and Unified SpaceMaster System).  I know, not official acronyms, but I like them better.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Like JimiSue, I did not like the size consumption of some of the systems.

This isn't quite accurate, but I can't find a source to check it:

"Any sentient species will build data systems as small as possible, if only to reduce cycle time with signals traveling at less than lightspeed."

 - Larry Niven, The Soft Weapon

That same type of constraint applies in some form, in some measure, to everything you put into the artificial closed environment that is a spacecraft. The smaller and lighter the nuts and bolts of the craft are, the more weight and space can be devoted to doing whatever you built it for.

Logically I'd think it would vary with tech level and available resources, although "available resources" for a multi-stellar society may quite easily be a moot point. But regardless of actual size and weight, at any given tech level it's going to be as small and light as they can possibly get it.

A spacefaring species would get "spacecraft" down to the size, weight, cost and disposability of a throwaway patch you stick on your skin if they could. Why? Because everything you want a spacecraft for gets cheaper that way.

[markc]

  Also lets not forget just how hard it is to design a system on your own from the ground up and get it in to a book as you wish.
MDC

[JimiSue]

A spacefaring species would get "spacecraft" down to the size, weight, cost and disposability of a throwaway patch you stick on your skin if they could. Why? Because everything you want a spacecraft for gets cheaper that way.

Agreed. And going off topic slightly - in Jack McDevitt's books (the Priscilla Hutchins series) he has a device called a Flickinger field where that has been done with space suits. Essentially this consists of a lightweight harness that projects a field around the user that is transparent, but air-tight and heat-tight. It provides limited protection when touching and holding things (since they can get quite cold in space) but will not stop a determined assault.

Certainly a lot more convenient and less cumbersome than an environmental suit, which in SM2 are already lightweight enough to have the wonderful AT2 - I've been toying with allowing them in my game since personal energy fields are already a feature, perhaps giving them no AT enhancement but a +10 DB vs projectiles, missiles & melee.

But anyway, back to space ships

[arakish]

Like JimiSue, I did not like the size consumption of some of the systems.

Logically I'd think it would vary with tech level and available resources, although "available resources" for a multi-stellar society may quite easily be a moot point. But regardless of actual size and weight, at any given tech level it's going to be as small and light as they can possibly get it.

Quite true and thanks for the DeNozo smack.  I did vary the size of components based on TL.  However, I was referring to the formulas and the example I gave on the 2007 Dodge Viper engine being twice the size of the whole car just to get it to RL specs using the formula as RAW for ICEs (internal combustion engine).  At first, an ICE would have to have been quite large to propel a car at 100kps.  However, we are at the verge of TL16/TL17 and using the formula as RAW in the VehMan still causes the engine to be about twice the size as the whole car.  I even tried it on an Apache attack helicopter and the engine required would be about 1.5 times larger than the whole helicopter.  And for a third example, I tried a M1B1 main battle tank and, again, the engine ended up being larger than the whole tank.  That was the problems I referring to on the size comsumption of some of the systems.  Especially using it RAW.

I basically went in and altered some of the factors in the formulas so they would be more realistic instead of whimsical.  Some I did not alter such as Zero Point Power Modules (misnomered as Vacuum Power) and the Cosmic Power Generator.  Some I also left alone because they were realistic, especially the rocket engines.  IIRC, rockets have to expend about 50% of their power just to lift the fuel needed up into orbit.

I even added some other systems, engines, etc. not in the VehMan version of the construction guidelines.

Update: Still haven't looked for my rewrite yet.  Yesterday was a butt buster of a day and when I got home, I ate supper, laid down to watch Stargate: Atlantis, and fell asleep.  Perhaps I'll get around to it this weekend.

rmfr

[markc]

  I had always hoped that there would be more of an extension of the Tech beyond 26 or so. By that I mean something more than just Cosmic Power and some ultimate drive. I know you can just adjust TL's of specific equipment and other tricks and I also understand just how hard it is to predict the future. (have to go important stuff happening)
MDC

[Guillaume]

The spaceship construction guide in SM2 Star Strike is about as bad. It really limits your choices and some things are astronomically large (sensors spring to mind). I've done an Excel spreadsheet (somewhere, I got distracted last time I tried to find it so t's still buried in a folder) but I tweaked a lot of the formulas.

Mine should still be hidden somewhere in the forum Vault. For both Star Strike ( starships ) and Armored Assault ( anything planet bound ).
I solved the astronomically large things by adding a tech factor to almost each component that reduced or increased the size/mass. ( depending on what you wanted to do, it's a percentile value, so 0 % = Volume stay as is, 50% = volume divided by 2, 100% no volume used, negative values add volume )

Pseudo Edit : I just looked into the Vault and it seems the files are gone. I'll try to repost them.

Real Edit : Found the files ( well the file now ). It is misplaced in the Vault, and is hiding in the SM:P part :
 Downloads > Spacemaster >Tables (SM:P) > Spacemaster Ship/Vehicle Creation Sheet.

It should be in the SM1/SM2 part of the vault.

[arakish]

Previously I posted,

Quite true and thanks for the DeNozo smack.  I did vary the size of components based on TL.  However, I was referring to the formulas and the example I gave on the 2007 Dodge Viper engine being twice the size of the whole car just to get it to RL specs using the formula as RAW for ICEs (internal combustion engine).  At first, an ICE would have to have been quite large to propel a car at 100kps.

And I am surprised no one caught the mistake.

It should have been, "At first, an ICE would have to have been quite large to propel a car at 100mps."  I guess I had kilometers on mind when it should have been meters per second.

Sorry if this confused anyone.

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

So okay, it makes sense that an ICE would have to be quite large to propel a car at 9x Earth's escape velocity.

And there for a moment,

It should have been, "At first, an ICE would have to have been quite large to propel a car at 100mps."

I was thinking, "Wait, what? Going from km per second to miles per second doesn't improve things..." and then I reread it.

 

"Watch out for that bump in the road, if this car leaves the ground it'll never come back down again."

 

[markc]

 

"Watch out for that bump in the road, if this car leaves the ground it'll never come back down again."

 

Reminds me of the story when someone attached a JATO rocket to their car and the cops found a very long skid mark. Followed by nothing......until they looked up and there was the car crashed into the side of a mountain, X* # of feet off the ground. ( X*= I do not remember just how high the car was but I think they will have the story at the Darwin Awards web site.)
MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

Turns out it's an urban legend:

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1995-04.html

[JimiSue]

Mythbusters have attempted to test it - twice. But had rocket issues both times. The second time they had the rocket built professionally and it exploded  instead of firing off. Adam Savage (one of the co-presenters) is on camera a couple of time asking questions of the techs like "So does this mean we're due a refund of our $10k bucks?"