Topic: Haste/Speed and Adrenal Speed

[VladD]

I'd never allow it: 300% 400% action per round is not cool.

My personal reasoning behind this is that you can get too excited and start doing things ADD style: really fast, really sloppy and ineffective. Also I've threathened with RR vs Cardiohypertachiation (a heart attack).

But game balance is my biggest worry. My campaigns tend to last longer than  5 years and I feel that keeping the balance is key to achieving this. Some players might use it sparingly, but I'm sure my players will abuse it to the fullest, as would I.

As for any extra bonuses: those would be superfluous as 100% extra activity is bonus enough.
The extra jumping distance should come from extra movement allowed before a jump.

[yammahoper]

All complaints about power creep are laughable with this thread.

Do what ya want, I'm just saying...

[RandalThor]

Really, isn't gaining in experience, level, and ability power creep? Isn't that the reason for the adventuring and going up in level in the first place? Getting more powerful? Huh.

The typical RM combat round is what, 10-seconds. I know they are going with a certain level of abstraction with that (and I am fine with it), but it also leaves room for upward movement - in the form of doing more as one gets better and better.

I am sure that everyone can relate that we do things faster as we get better and more comfortable (experienced) doing them. Think typing. Fighting is no different. A guy who has been training and using a weapon for 20+ years (and who is still fit and such) will be much quicker in performing the various "forms" of that weapon than someone who picked it up 6-months ago. Now, their individual quickness will have an effect here, but the muscle memory of the more experienced guy will also play a big part - which is why I think that a characters experience in what they are doing should have an effect on their initiative.

So, while the new guy takes 3 seconds to recover, assess, and make his next attack, the more experienced guy is doing that in 2 or even, 1.5 seconds.

I realize this is hard to reflect without more rules and complications, but I think it is worth it - especially if you are going to play a more heroic style game.

[yammahoper]

Really, isn't gaining in experience, level, and ability power creep? Isn't that the reason for the adventuring and going up in level in the first place? Getting more powerful? Huh.

The typical RM combat round is what, 10-seconds. I know they are going with a certain level of abstraction with that (and I am fine with it), but it also leaves room for upward movement - in the form of doing more as one gets better and better.

I am sure that everyone can relate that we do things faster as we get better and more comfortable (experienced) doing them. Think typing. Fighting is no different. A guy who has been training and using a weapon for 20+ years (and who is still fit and such) will be much quicker in performing the various "forms" of that weapon than someone who picked it up 6-months ago. Now, their individual quickness will have an effect here, but the muscle memory of the more experienced guy will also play a big part - which is why I think that a characters experience in what they are doing should have an effect on their initiative.

So, while the new guy takes 3 seconds to recover, assess, and make his next attack, the more experienced guy is doing that in 2 or even, 1.5 seconds.

I realize this is hard to reflect without more rules and complications, but I think it is worth it - especially if you are going to play a more heroic style game.

I don't disagree.  This is why in another thread I suggest tying effectiveness of spell/skill use to ranks in skill.

[providence13]

A while back, I remember Vroomfogle(?) suggesting an incremental Haste. I like the idea and thought about working it into the game..
You start with a %Act increase at low level (+20%Act/lvl, maybe) and eventually work it up to 200%, 300% or more for the highest level spells. This is how most other things in RM are handled; small increases over time.

VladD, the only "problem" I've encountered with ADD is downtime. Fight or Flight situations make focusing easy. Cops and snipers and air-traffic controllers all benefit and many are predisposed. People have carried spears and defended perimeters far longer than setting those spears aside to farm. Not all of us got the memo.
  I totally agree that the %Act is bonus enough! I don't give a + to init for Haste. If PC's want a bonus to MM, then use the added %Act to prep/set up the maneuver.
  The heart attack option is a good control; similar to my Haste addiction. But it might already be present in the MM table. Just sub a "broken arm/spine" for heart attack. Your games definitely have consequences! I'd love to play.

The fantastic number of attacks mentioned, can also be a liability. Often, the enemy will be defeated before the final attack roll. But you've already declared the attacks so changing actions is a penalty, changing targets is a penalty and if you have to run up to another opponent, there's an OB and init penalty. IF the opponent survives the barrage, their DB is applied to each attack, RAW. 

Another liability is Translocation spells. Or anything that requires a Situational Awareness: Combat roll/Surprise roll. "The total of the maneuver roll indicates what %Act is available for the reaction" SoHK, . Now maybe you can double this if PC's are Hasted/Adrenal Speed. Or just say that they have their full %Act, but reacting to this event is restricted by the roll. For now, I go with the former. The Mage realizes that after the Monk spends the time to set up Adrenal Speed and Haste, it might not be a good time to use translocation spells on him.

[providence13]

I don't disagree.  This is why in another thread I suggest tying effectiveness of spell/skill use to ranks in skill.

RMFRP is a skill based system, imho. Casting lvl is Ranks in the List for us.

Maybe Haste/Ad Speed could be handled the same. +5%Act/Rank.. or whatever works for your game.

[jaranka]

RMFRP is a skill based system, imho. Casting lvl is Ranks in the List for us.

So a level 5 character with 15 ranks in his list can cast level 9 spells with no prep and no penalty?  Wow does that seem powerful.

[providence13]

RMFRP is a skill based system, imho. Casting lvl is Ranks in the List for us.

So a level 5 character with 15 ranks in his list can cast level 9 spells with no prep and no penalty?  Wow does that seem powerful.

OT:
While this does enable you to actually cast spells, there are some caveats.

1. No overcasting. You only know up to the Rank in that List.

2. No "/lvl" increase. You get the first one, but have to buy each increment thereafter. 1:1PP. Spend PP to cast and spend PP for the "affects". 10'/lvl = 10' +10'/additional PP.

3. Each and every spell requires a SCSM (+1/PP used). No automatic casting.
Failing SCSM, PP increase the severity of the roll on Spell Failure Table; +1/PP. This can get ugly if the SCSM Table says to double or triple the mods (PP is now a mod..)


So you can cast the spells you know. But you should still prep, if able. Also casters have to make hard choices about how many PP will go into each spell. The greater the PP, the better you can brute force it to work, but there's a greater risk if you screw up.

For a modified Haste, I might consider %Act increase as a factor of PP..

[Ynglaur]

RMFRP is a skill based system, imho. Casting lvl is Ranks in the List for us.

So a level 5 character with 15 ranks in his list can cast level 9 spells with no prep and no penalty?  Wow does that seem powerful.

#3 is very rough.  I think it would allow you to get something like 2000 spells off (on average) before hitting a catastrophic -250 or less.

OT:
While this does enable you to actually cast spells, there are some caveats.

1. No overcasting. You only know up to the Rank in that List.

2. No "/lvl" increase. You get the first one, but have to buy each increment thereafter. 1:1PP. Spend PP to cast and spend PP for the "affects". 10'/lvl = 10' +10'/additional PP.

3. Each and every spell requires a SCSM (+1/PP used). No automatic casting.
Failing SCSM, PP increase the severity of the roll on Spell Failure Table; +1/PP. This can get ugly if the SCSM Table says to double or triple the mods (PP is now a mod..)


So you can cast the spells you know. But you should still prep, if able. Also casters have to make hard choices about how many PP will go into each spell. The greater the PP, the better you can brute force it to work, but there's a greater risk if you screw up.

For a modified Haste, I might consider %Act increase as a factor of PP..

[JimiSue]

I had this query come up (in Spacemaster 2 so different rule set). Adrenal Speed + the very addictive drug (80 AF I think it is) that hastes the user, and the telepath using a haste psion. After I pointed out that to fire guns that fast they would need specially modified weapons, they lost interest, so the tech provided an easy out for me!

[markc]

I had this query come up (in Spacemaster 2 so different rule set). Adrenal Speed + the very addictive drug (80 AF I think it is) that hastes the user, and the telepath using a haste psion. After I pointed out that to fire guns that fast they would need specially modified weapons, they lost interest, so the tech provided an easy out for me!

 Yes that is a good one, tech to the rescue.
MDC

[RandalThor]

I had this query come up (in Spacemaster 2 so different rule set). Adrenal Speed + the very addictive drug (80 AF I think it is) that hastes the user, and the telepath using a haste psion. After I pointed out that to fire guns that fast they would need specially modified weapons, they lost interest, so the tech provided an easy out for me!

And I would have argued (though not too seriously) that most high-tech weapons would have the ability to cycle faster than a human can "pull the trigger" which is probably the main factor in a weapons fire rate. Hook up a robotic or electronic firing mechanism and most of the high-tech weapons would fire almost like they were "machine-whatevers".

Now, if you wanted to say that in making the weapon fire so fast it was causing undue wear and tear and overheating, all of which increases the breakage factor and critical fumble range, I would totally understand.

[jdale]

I had this query come up (in Spacemaster 2 so different rule set). Adrenal Speed + the very addictive drug (80 AF I think it is) that hastes the user, and the telepath using a haste psion. After I pointed out that to fire guns that fast they would need specially modified weapons, they lost interest, so the tech provided an easy out for me!

And I would have argued (though not too seriously) that most high-tech weapons would have the ability to cycle faster than a human can "pull the trigger" which is probably the main factor in a weapons fire rate. Hook up a robotic or electronic firing mechanism and most of the high-tech weapons would fire almost like they were "machine-whatevers".

Now, if you wanted to say that in making the weapon fire so fast it was causing undue wear and tear and overheating, all of which increases the breakage factor and critical fumble range, I would totally understand.

I'm not so sure about that. Any weapon more complicated than a sword is going to have some cycle time, whether it is parts moving back into place, capacitors recharging, etc. In general it makes sense to design a weapon so that this time matches the rate at which it will be fired. If the weapon is capable of firing much more quickly, there are lots of ways to modify the design so that it is possible for the user to take full advantage of its capabilities. Burst mode, double trigger, full automatic fire, etc. I know with paintball guns equipped with electronic triggers and double triggers, you can basically get the same rate of fire as a fully automatic paintball gun. The gun has the capability, so that becomes the normal mode of use. If you don't allow that rate of fire with just equipment, it doesn't make sense to allow that rate of fire with multiple levels of haste.

As a rule of thumb I might allow double the number of attacks, but not more.

The one exception I can imagine is if the weapon is a military weapon that has been downgraded to a more limited civilian model. The equivalent of the semi-automatic AR15 version of the automatic (or at least burst fire depending on the model) M16. In that case it makes sense that the weapon is capable of more than its normal settings permit.

[markc]

  In SM:P you have continuous beam weapons you can design. I can see the shooter just being able to more accuratly move the continuous beam around to find their target. 
MDC

[JimiSue]

I'm not sure I like the idea of continuous beam - for those weapons I would require a definite upgrade in their power packs as that is the main limiter for faster firing - waiting for the charge to rebuild to the point where the laser becomes dangerous rather than just a laser pointing device for example.

Most of the weapons we use though are already mil-spec. Some of them are just about the design though. For example, having seen it done on Sons of Guns (Discovery Channel) I would probably allow them to customise a grenade rifle into a fully automatic model. Most things are possible though, even if they have to strap a microfusion weapons pack onto their fully automatic laser pistol. They have a character in the group skilled in weapons tech... I'm just not letting them have enough down time to really work on that kind of lengthy project.

It's going to happen though, I need to decide what I'm going to let them do on the multi-haste thing.

[markc]

I'm not sure I like the idea of continuous beam - for those weapons I would require a definite upgrade in their power packs as that is the main limiter for faster firing - waiting for the charge to rebuild to the point where the laser becomes dangerous rather than just a laser pointing device for example.

Most of the weapons we use though are already mil-spec. Some of them are just about the design though. For example, having seen it done on Sons of Guns (Discovery Channel) I would probably allow them to customise a grenade rifle into a fully automatic model. Most things are possible though, even if they have to strap a microfusion weapons pack onto their fully automatic laser pistol. They have a character in the group skilled in weapons tech... I'm just not letting them have enough down time to really work on that kind of lengthy project.

It's going to happen though, I need to decide what I'm going to let them do on the multi-haste thing.

The SM:P book Blaster Law has weapons for SM2 and has a creation system for making your own weapons. You might want to check it out.
MDC

[JimiSue]

Is fine - I'm happy making stuff up. Stops all the rules lawyers from thinking they have all the power Ultimately it will cost a significant chunk of cash (variable depending what the PC's bank balance is looking like at the time) and take enough time so as to be inconvenient with the pacing of the game.

I'm a nice GM really

[RandalThor]

Is fine - I'm happy making stuff up. Stops all the rules lawyers from thinking they have all the power Ultimately it will cost a significant chunk of cash (variable depending what the PC's bank balance is looking like at the time) and take enough time so as to be inconvenient with the pacing of the game.

I'm a nice GM really

Don't forget legality. Most civlized worlds will have some fairly strict laws on what types of weapons someone can carry around. And that is likely to differ between local and off-worlder. ("We don't want those stinky spacers to run around with auto-plasmas, they'd just burn down the place!") So, getting caught with a highly modified weapon could cost the PCs, both monetarily and possibly time.

[providence13]

On the super sped up shooting topic:
C-beams (continuous beam weapons) would melt anything they hit; eventually.
Then they melt themselves. That would be some high tech indeed. If you have the tech/materials to sink that much heat, you probably don't even have to fire at all.