Topic: Time Travel

[arakish]

Great book.  It is in my library.  That is where I got the idea that you can "see" the past and possible futures, but can never travel there physically, et al.

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

Consider that all possibilities can happen and your actions are what define the present. Everything you did in another present, would alter that future, but would have nothing to do with the present that you left.

Exactly. But you define your reality by what you experience, you have no other real reference points besides the basic "You Are Here", which you know constantly moves (with the flow of time.) "The past", "the future" and "now" are something we all define internally solely in relation to ourselves.

So if there are multiple pasts and futures, and you know this for certain because you've been in more than one of them and changed things.... which is the "real one" anymore, other than "whichever one I happen to be in"? And how can you tell?

If you changed the past, you changed which reality you're in. Yes, you killed your father before you were born, but it doesn't matter because that reality isn't "the real one" anymore.

 

[pastaav]

Another way to run time travel in the game is that by magic it is possible to time travel back in time and change things. Problem is just that you then must make the choice of staying in the new time line you created or traveling back to your original time line. This mean that you can go back and kill you father/make him rich or what ever but when you return to your own time nothing has changed.

Obviously the society might not be very keen of accepting this person that came out of nowhere and claims he is from the future and have a better understanding about how things really are. This is especially true if your native self from the time line is around.

I think this kind of setup makes for great stories about heroes from the future returning to stop some apocalypse to happen. It also totally dodge the awkward "we need to do real time travel to be able gaming a setting when our characters do time travel..."
In some case the heroes from the future might decide to stay instead of returning to the misery of the future. In other cases they return back to their own time to not disturb the life of others with their greater knowledge of the state of the world, at least they can be content with that there are a time line that escaped the horrors of their future. Possibly they could have learned something important that give them a chance to turn the tide in their own time line.   

[arakish]

This is especially true if your native self from the time line is around.

Then, you would have to worry about entropic cascade failure.  That is if you subscribe to such psuedo-science.

Entropic cascade failure is a side effect that can occur when traveling to an alternate reality or alternate timeline. It is caused by the increased entropy created by multiple versions of the same person in one reality. The effects, which only affect the non-native versions, continue to get worse over time, eventually resulting in death. The only way to prevent this is for them to go back to their own reality.

rmfr

[bpowell]

I have only allowed Time travel in a small way in my campaigns (one SF and one fantasy).  I had a professor in college one time discuss this.  I think he was one of the few people that could read Einstein's notes (face it the man was a PhD in Mathematics, meaning he had like discovered new ways to do math....strange).  He mentioned that two things would happen is a person went back in time (physically).

One, the event would cause a fracture of the time line and the person would be in a totally new time line.  This would mean that there were an infinite number of  time lines out there.  Each slightly different from te others (al la Sliders).  So going back would preclude coming back to the time you left since you are in a different time line.  All this was too much to keep up with.  It would become oike a Marvel Multiverse with too man possibilities to track.

Two, the outcome of a single persons actions are like a rock dropping in a pond.  The further you get from the event the less effect it has.  So if you go back 10 years you might see profound changes in your local area.  But if you went back 100 the effect would be less, and at 1,000 it might be undetectable.

Yes if we went back a  week and bought tickets for that $640M lottery that just took place we would be rich, but 100 years in the future nobody would know.  Bu the chance at going back to 1930 and finding a man that was obscure and I think in jail and killing him to prevent World War II, would be more than likely impossible.  And given the social and economic pressures in Germany at that time someone would have filled the void.  Would he have been as bad?  I cannot say.

How I did this in my games is that they players were tip toeing around and trying not to change anything.  So when they got back, the changes were minor.  "Say, didn't that used to be a coffee shop?"  Of course, I did have a few changes just to mess with them.  Everyone seemed to think it was fun, but did not want to do it again.

[arakish]

Update Post

Here is the final version of how I will handle the prospective question: "Why can't we time travel?" in my upcoming campaign world of Onaviu.  This is literally a cut and paste of my webpage.


Time Travel has become one of the most exploited subjects.  No other subject has elicited as much speculation in all fields: science-fiction, romance, drama, suspense, and even theoretical physics.  In this section, I cover how I handle time travel on Onaviu.

One surprising fact is that physics, as we understand them today, do not say that Time Travel is impossible.  Nor do they say it is possible.

I will also be the first to admit that I do enjoy a good time travel story as much as anyone else.  However, from a GM's perspective...

Then there is always the joke: If time travel were possible, then how come we haven't met any time travellers?

Into the Past

As one member on the Iron Crown Forums stated (emphasis mine):

… I don't want spells with the ability to mess with things that have already occurred to throw a campaign into chaos from the GM's perspective.  If it were not for that I might let people actually change the past. …

(about halfway down in his post)

Like Corey Magel, I DO NOT want anyone, except the GM (me), to have the capability of throwing a game into complete turmoil and disarray.  Especially from the GM's perspective.  One major reason is because I, the GM, will be the one forced to deal with such turmoil and disarray, possibly with no help from the players, especially the one who caused such problems.  One thing I learned early in my GM career is that if you give the players the capability of completely destroying your campaign's timeline, they will do so.  And the one specifically who is actually responsible for doing such, will also leave the GM to deal with the mess by him/herself.  The other players may help the GM, but usually the one who causes the problem also refuses to help.

Thus, before the question even arises, travelling into the past is IMPOSSIBLE.  Period.  Exclamation Point.  End of argument.

The past is immutable.  However, one can "see" into the past.  That is the best one can do.

Into the Future

Travelling into the future is a much different pile of horse hoowhee.  The chances of divergence from the current timeline are incredibly drastic.  And dramatic.  Reasoning: The future has yet to happen and literally possesses an infinite number of infinite possibilities.

OEd100 - Mod; where Roll = unmodified open-ended d100 roll, and Mod = -1 per day travelled into the future AND any other applicable modifiers.  For example (with no other mods), travelling one 365-day year into the future would mean a Total Mod of -365.

The greater the negative number, the greater the chances for more drastic divergence.  Basically, time travel into the future is usually not done.

As with the past, one can "see" into the future.  However, one must also remember that what is seen is ONLY one possible future.  Only Nimnaur (a god on Onaviu) has the ability to see all possible futures.  Thus, the reason he is considered the darkest and most brooding of the gods.  7734, wouldn't you be if you could see all possible futures?


By no means does this mean that this topic is "dead."  If others have ideas and criticisms, then please post them.  I may even consider using them.  Additionally, they may help others who ask "Is time travel possible?  And if so, how should I handle it?"

Thanks for all of y'all's ideas and criticisms.

rmfr

[markc]

  What about this situation:
    A person goes forward in time from time 00:00.00 to 20 years from then. Can he/she go back 10 years without any problems?
MDC

[arakish]

Thanks for pointing that one out.

Only if they use a "Signpost" (or similar) power/spell.  Even then, they would still have the same modifier/100 on finding that Signpost.  Thus, a 20 year trip to the future would entail a modifier of -7300.  Quite a divergence from the current timeline.  To find their way back plus ten years, would entail a modifier of -3723 ((-7300/100) + (365 * 10 * -1)).  Still quite a nasty chance of not getting back to where they wanted.

In other words, although travel to a possible future is possible, one has to be careful how far.

And for some more of my thoughts.

Ultimately, travel to the past could be possible.  However, I still feel that such would not be "true" time travel but actually crossing barriers into an alternate reality/timeline.  And for such, I may apply the same equation as I do for travelling to the future.

And I still think the joke about time travel does have an interesting point: If time travel were possible, then how come we haven't met any time travellers?

One answer I've heard is: Because they keep themselves hidden.  They blend in so well you don't know they are time travellers.

To which I always say, "Horse Hoowhee!  Do you honestly think that all time travellers would be so damned benign and incorruptible?"

My ultimate answer is "7734 NO!"  Although, yes, there are some persons who are incorruptible, but ALL of them?  Horse Hoowhee.  Always remember the saying about power: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Then again, power just attracts the corruptible.  (That is someone's signature, but forget who's.)  Frakking with the past would be too tempting of a prize for there to be absolutely not one time traveller who wouldn't frak with something in the past "just to see what happens."

Then again, there is the ultimate question: "If a time traveller did frak with his past in our present, how would we know?"  To which the answer is: "We wouldn't.  But he would."

Basically, it is up to the GM if s/he allows time travel.  If s/he does not mind keeping up with that migraine, then more power to him/her.  As mentioned in another post, I had one player do something in the past that led to such a cascade effect (a la Butterfly Effect) into their present so as to totally destroy my campaign world as I had envisioned it.  Ultimately, to keep from having to deal with that migraine, I said that we actually were playing an alternate reality version of that group for just that session.  Thus, leaving my world intact.  Needless to say, the player who did that left the game because person to person (not player to GM, or character, et al), I told him flatly, I was not going to allow him to destroy or disrupt my gameworld just because he wanted to try and change the past in a chance to give his character more power.

On this, I totally agree with Corey Magel (emphasis mine):

Because I don't want spells with the ability to mess with things that have already occurred to throw a campaign into chaos from the GM's perspective.  If it were not for that I might let people actually change the past.

Believe me.  Running a world where time travel is possible is a major migraine.  I did it run a "timeliners" campaign once, and it led to a MAJOR MIGRAINE.  If any person out there can keep up with the infinite number of infinite realities/timelines, more power to him/her.  It is hard enough just to keep up with one reality/timeline.

And again, I will say that like most people, I do enjoy a good time travel story.  I just do not think it is possible.

rmfr

[markc]

  After reading your comments in the RM sections about Gods and TT (time Travel) I had the thought of ... is it not just as good to communicate with someone in the future or the past? Is the communication itself considered TT? Or does there have to be some other interactioin?
MDC

[providence13]

Low tech time travel: go to sleep. 

[arakish]

a la Rip van Winkle

Love it.

rmfr

[arakish]

I am taking this into a new direction as can be seen below.  Let's have your thoughts.

But What If I Do Not Want to Deal with the Migraine Time Travel Can and Will Cause?

Actually this is quite simple.  It all depends on how badly you want to discourage time travel, yet do not want to just say, "It's impossible."  And then deal with the "Whys" and "Why Nots".

Idea One

Simply inform your players of the die roll equation involved with travelling through time.  Of course, this is a modified version of the ones in my first post.

OEd100 - Modifiers; where OEd100 = an open-ended d100 roll; Modifiers = -1 per <time unit> travelled through time and any other modifiers deemed appropriate by the GM.

The <time unit> above is whatever time unit you want to use, whether into the past or future.  To truly and strongly discourage time travel, make the <time unit> equal to 1 second.  If you want to make time travel easy, then you could use per 100 years as the <time unit>.

The smaller the result means the more drastically different the timeline becomes.  For example, if the final result is -86205, then the timeline is so different, it is a depraved nightmare.  BTW, the -86205 is from using -1 per second and going back the equivalent of one Earth day back into time (86,400 seconds) and rolling a total of 195 on the OEd100.  Of course, that is if you want to be a nasty GM, or just DO NOT want to deal with time travel.

Furthermore, you could also apply the above equation on those damned spells that allow players to see into the past or future.  You could even apply the equation to scrying spells using <distance unit> instead of time unit.

To be particularly nasty, you could use both<time unit> and <distance unit> as modifiers.

Idea Two

Use my approach from above.  Tell your players that time travel is nothing but a fancy naming for what is actually slipping across alternate realities/timelines.  Furthermore, to complicate things, tell them that time flow in each alternate reality/timeline is not the same.  Some flow faster, some flow slower.  That ought to throw a big monkey wrench into the gears.  This is what I am going to ultimately do with my upcoming game world of Onaviu, except time flow remains equal in all alternate realities.

Idea Three

Sorry, but just be honest and tell them time travel is impossible.  Tell them you just do not want to deal with the migraine that keeping up with time travel will cause.  Believe me.  In the one campaign I allowed time travel, it did become the biggest migraine I have ever had.  Then I literally threw all the papers into the trash.  Guess what?  The migraines went away.  Seriously.

rmfr

[markc]

IMHO #3 is the best. TT is a nightmare unless there are people/things that protect the timeline.
MDC

[providence13]

Another option is to not tell them anything.
So you've learned a Spell List or found some megatech that claims to allow time travel. Many scholars of various races and different worlds have written texts on what this means and how to do it..

That may have very little to do with what actually happens when they decide to use the spell/device.

It's ok to  throw out more false rumors and red herrings than actual facts. 
Such is life.

[markc]

  Or maybe TT requires you to be a specific type of being and the PC's are not evolved enough yet to survive TT.
MDC

[JimiSue]

Or maybe TT requires you to be a specific type of being and the PC's are not evolved enough yet to survive TT.
MDC

The PC switches on the machine, steps inside, and disappears.... and all the other PCs know is that the character does not return. The GM hands a clean character sheet to the player whose character tried this. PCs take the hint.

[Cory Magel]

My take on time travel does pretty much eliminate the possibility of a huge headache.

As I've mentioned before, you can't change the past even if you can travel back to it.  Reasoning being the paradox issue.  If you make something happen the way you wanted then there was no reason for the future you to need to go back and change it.  Thus, the best you can expect is to simply witness the event or, worse yet, be part of the cause by way of the attempt at tampering with it.

Going forward in time I will allow.  If you look forward in time and see an event you want to change you can do that.  However everything from that event forward is now subject to change.  When you go forward in time you can only return to the exact point in time from which you traveled forward from... doing otherwise would cause the time travelers destruction in a way that I don't bother to explain (I'd likely just say it puts the traveler out of sync with time and they simply cease to exist from that point forward).

This causes backward time travel, even if allowed, to not screw with the campaign and causes sight or travel into the future to become useful (even if not time traveling) in trying to prevent a specific event only.

[LonePaladin]

Seems like I keep running into older threads that call for my input.

Rolemaster Companion V had a unique take on the whole time-travel shtick that basically made paradoxes impossible. I won't try to reproduce the whole thing here (mainly because I'm going from memory), but here are the basics as I can recall them:

Everything on a timeline is moving forward at a uniform rate. When you remove yourself to go time-hopping, your origin point continues to go forward -- so, for instance, if you spend 3 days in the past, your 'home' point is 3 days later when you return. If you go into the future for a week, then a week has passed when you come back.

Events in the past get overwritten when you travel, but the effects of these changes never affect your 'home' time because they never catch up. If you go back to 1963 and prevent President Kennedy's assassination, it still happened in your origin time. Anyone else who travels within the time-frame that you altered will see the changes -- but only after enough time has passed.

Let's say you use the above example, go back to '63 and prevent the shooting. If you want to see how this affected things, say, a year later, you would have to wait a full year and go to that exact point in '64 to see it. You couldn't just jump from '63 to '64, because the original '64 is still there. Since everything moves forward at the same pace, you have to give time for changes to take place.

Now, while this prevents paradox, it doesn't prevent exploitation. A good example is the lottery: you could easily wait for the winning numbers to be announced, then go back a week and buy a ticket. The problem here is when quantum physics gets involved -- your buying a ticket changes how many people are participating, and the random elements of the drawing may turn out differently.

If your GM wants to run it that way, at least. You may simply get away with it. Just be sure to take a single lump-sum payment in cash, so you have something useful to take back home. But if you do, be aware that every bill you have in your pockets has a duplicate somewhere, which could cause problems.

This sort of temporal view actually allows for scenarios like in the movie TimeCop, where people have the task of dealing with those who try to steal from the past. Might make an interesting campaign, actually.

[Vyrolakos]

This thread is a great example of how we know time travel (in a single dimensional time frame, rather than multiple diverging timelines) will never happen. If it were possible, our single timeline would have imploded with people in the future trying to make changes to get things 'their' way.

If people are happy to strap bombs to themselves and blow up buses full of innocent passengers, imagine what you could expect from some future extremist? 

That's the problem with time travel. Sane people would think twice about the repercussions of tampering with time. Unfortunately, it's not the sane people you have to worry about.

However .... 

This train of logic is the very reason that Time Travel is such a cool idea in roleplaying games. The idea of chasing down these lunatics and stopping them or putting things right makes for potentially great gaming. 

Time Riders is still one of my favourite sourcebooks. 

[markc]

The most dangerous person is one who has nothing left to lose.
MDC