Topic: (Privateers) Everyman, Occupational, & Restricted applies to skill categories?

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Wecome to Rolemaster. The game that has at least as many interpretations of rules as it has players.

Yet we all still love it.

As far as I can tell the rank cap is also a little strange in it's interpretation... since it is possible to acquire a Training package after 1st level, at which point there maybe several skills (acquired with the TP) that have already reached their cap. I therfore normaly only apply the cap at 1st level.

The rank cap can be still be exceeded with skills defined as "Lifestyle".

[NanoEther]

with my example of the soldier, once he develops 10 ranks in Heavy-Armor & Power Armor, he would see no increase in that skill or category if he takes the Force Recon training package again.

That's by core rules on training packages, SM:P adds the idea of Lifestyle skills, which can be raised to 15 ranks. These only occur in lifestyle training packages and there's normally only one per package.

Personally, I think the rule is sound, 10 ranks in the category & skill (combined categories only require 10 in the skill) gives you a 50% base chance to succeed in most skills.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I'd have to say that, I see absolutely no technical difference between acquiring a skil or category rank as part of a TP (which the character pays DP to acquire)... and by "normal" focussed skill acquisition (which also needs to be purchased with DP).

In the long run, diminishing returns hits anyhow, as soon as 10 ranks are reached, so less benefit is recieved. Therefore, I can't see the point in there being an artificial cap. It's just another quirk of RMSS/SMP character creation which adds IMHO an unnecessary level of complexity.

[jdale]

The difference is that you receive a substantial DP discount when skills are purchased as part of a training package. I think that makes sense when you are intensely learning a linked set of skills early in your career (i.e. you don't already know them to a high level). And it is partially balanced by making you take skills you might otherwise overlook that result in a better-rounded character as might emerge from that life experience.

But if you take a TP every level in the long term (with no rank cap) you will end up with a significant advantage over a character who doesn't. Possibly 30-40% DP advantage depending on the TPs you pick, or more. Plus you get around what are effectively rank per level limits. It's good to put a limit on those things.

[markc]

 I agree with jdale above that you should put a limit on the O and E skills (I personally do not limit the R skills in my game) as they can be come unbalanced at higher levels. Also as jdale says training packages (TP's) give a 25% discount (IIRC) on skills and that can also have a big impact on total skill bonuses.
 TP's are very important in SM:P as they are tied to specific life experiences and goals. You want to become a doctor then you have to have the correct TP's to get your official MD.
 IMHO the TP idea is great to help out in fleshing out PC's and giving them a great chance to have a more well rounded character.


  As to why they stop at 10 ranks. Well if I had to guess I would say that advanced skill learning was the result of genetics or racial analysis and provided the PC or race with a great understanding (background) of the area in question but did not provided advanced knowledge in the area. ie a high (ish) bonus at a lower skill rank.
MDC

[NanoEther]

To me it has to do with the training/learning process its self, in other words, it's the difference between a Masters degree and a Doctorate.

Training up to the Masters level is based on known works and is readily available. this is the 10 rank cap.

A Doctorate, however, often requires research, sometimes into unknown areas and required the student to be able to take information and create sense out of what they discover. This is self driven study & research.

On the other side, let's look at what the ranks get a character. The ranks give them a 50% chance, they should have suitable stat bonuses to help them, at least a +20. That raises it to a 70% chance. Suitable resources, tools, etc can give another 20 to 30 bonus, or better. So let's give them another +20, that's a 90 percent chance to succeed, with a base of 10 ranks in a skill.

What happens if they have a stat bonus of 0, or even a negative stat bonus? Well, if they've got the training package, you still call them doctor.

[markc]

 In SM:P you have a doctors licence at 6 ranks of Medical Practice (IIRC, I did a fast look up and the Med Degree TP has Med Pract 2 ranks and the rest is going from memory making PC's and GMing).
MDC

[NanoEther]

Sorry, bad joke, and yes, the degree argument is a bit weak,
but...

Resident gives you 4. So yes, with 6 ranks from the training packages you are a doctor. But taking another level of Medical Resident is cheaper then other medical training packages. Are they really still a resident? No, this just reflects that he is continuing as a general practitioner and that he is using the more experienced doctors to learn more. He has now hit his 10 rank limit and looses half the ranks from Medical Resident. He can still take Medical Degree since Med Practice is a Lifestyle skill, or he can advance into Medical Specialist, Surgeon, or Surgical Specialist. Yes, you still loose some of the ranks, but it's less then 25% of the ranks you get. That's when the cost/benefit ratio favors the cost side.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

With Training packages, in my own games, they are aways restricted in number and are based upon availability/accessability within the campaign if acquisition is attempted after the character creation phase.

Therefore, the number of ranks gained is usually not that great to require the cap at 1st level. Yes, it is very rare for most experienced GM's to actually start their characters at 1st level (I tend to start mine at 3rd), so the problem might rear its head then... but actually acquiring a TP *in game* should be a fairly rare event/opporunity.

I do tend to require the compulsary purchase of at least one TP per level for starting characters (with a maximum of 6 total during the creation phase), this creates a history, and tends to use the majority of a starting characters DP to create a fairly rounded character.   

So why is it considered a problem requiring a cap? The downsides of TP's (which I love BTW exactly for the reasons of backround creation, time-savings and realisitc skills coverage) is the downtime (and aging) required to achieve those benefits in game.... and the fact, that even though what you do get is discounted, you don't normally get *exactly* what you, as a player, would wish to get if you were to individually choose the skill ranks from the same equivilent pool of DP. Yes, it enforces rounding of a characters skills to reflect what is expected from that TP, and that is a good thing... but many of those skills simply will not be commonly used from a player's perspective.

For character creation, the downtime spent achieving the skills provided by TP, is meant to be reflective of the benefits of experience gained whilst practicing that activity that the TP represents balanced by the loss of adventuring experience that the character might have recieved in the same period of time. Therefore, whilst a student might recieve a doctorate after taking 2-3 TPs...by 3rd level, they have missed out on an equivilent of several years of adventuring time, which could easily have got them 10+ levels!

No, I feel that the problem isn't the cap on ranks gained from TP, rather the potential overlap of several TP that might provide the exact same ranks in the same skills. That can be easily prevented in three ways without requiring a mandatory cap, if you as a GM are concerned about it being a problem in your campaign.

1. Don't allow the same Named TP to be taken twice* 
2. If skill ranks acquired in two different TP are optional, then simply state that the player must allocate them to different skills.
3. Ban specific TP.

As I said, IF you consider it a problem as a GM. Personally, this might only occur with combat skills.. but for the most part overspecialisation of this magnitude causes deficits elsewhere in a character. 

*SM(P) has several, IIRC, Engineering, Medical and Tech-based that can, though these are basically differing levels of the same TP for qualifying requirements for a more advanced TP (and could easily be renamed as seperate TP).