Topic: SM: Privateers VM Construction & Design: Armaments - Missile Launcher

[snrdg051306]

I'm going over the construction sequence, again/yet/still, and confused myself on calculating the launcher statistics for a missile system.

SM: P VM (Copyright 2002, Stock #4513, ISBN 1-55806-565-2) Select Armaments pp. 107 to 109.

Determine Mark Number of the Firing Mechanisms, p. 107, provides the following

1. For missiles, the Mark Number is determined by the number of missiles in the volley.

2. Each weapon has a mass. The frame of the weapon determines it's mass, not the Mark Number. Missile launchers are rated by tech level.

Mass and Volume of Missile Launcher by Tech Level Chart p. 108
shows the factors for each tech level.

My first impression is that purchasing a Tech Level 25 launcher capable of a 10 missile salvo has a Mass and Volume of 0.25 per the chart on p. 108.

Going over the sequence again my mind finally energized a light bulb. A launcher firing a 10 missile should have a mass and volume greater than one only capable of launching a single missile. Unfortunately, the second quote seems to indicate that a 10 salvo launcher has the same mass and volume as a single  missile launcher system.

So does a TL. 25 Mk. 10 missile launcher have a mass and volume of of 2.5 or 0.25 metric tons/kiloliters?

Launcher Cost, per p. 109, is ¢1,000,000. Would the TL 25 Mk. 10 system cost ¢10,000,000 or ¢1,000,000?

Would the Launcher require 1 Power unit, per p. 109, or 10 power units?

My thinking right now is that a TL 25 MK. 10 launcher should Mass 2.5 tons, have a Volume 2.5 kiloliters, Cost ¢10,000,000, and requires 10 power units.

Apparently my brain is going on vacation;-)

[markc]

 There is a chart in the book that determines the number of missiles that can be fired at a target. It is based on the targets mass.
 
 From my understanding a missile launcher can fire any number of missiles per round with-in the limits above. I guess you could fire more missiles but the rest would miss. But that is my understanding from reading the rules.


MDC

[snrdg051306]

I think we are talking about two different items concerning a missile launcher.

From the comment the number of missiles that can be launched in a combat round depends the target's mass. A very loose example, since I can't look at my books right now, is that a target's mass indicates that a TL 25 Mk 25 launcher can fire only a five missile salvo. Not very realistic in my opinion, since I'm the type that given the right factors would launch a 25 missile salvo regardless of the target's mass.

I'm not asking about how many missiles I can salvo at a target of X metric tons of mass. I'm, however, trying to wrap my mind around how to determine a given Mark Number missile launcher the correct mass, volume, power, and cost.

The directions in Determine Mark Number of Firing Mechanisms, p. 107, is clear on how to handle the mass, volume, power, and cost of a Autocannon, projectile cannon, and all the energy weapons.

Basically you decide on the weapon's firing mechanism, then the frame size, and finally cross reference that on the Mass & Volume of Frame by Firing Mechanism chart on p. 108, Cost of Firing Mechanism Chart p. 109 and Power cost as Mark # x 2.

Per the design example Gary opts for 2 compact Blasters. Looking on p. 108 the chart indicates that a compact blaster has a mass/volume of 10. Two compact blasters take up 20 spaces of mass/volume, cost ¢2.8 million, and consumes 2 blasters x Mk 10 x 2 = 20 x 2 = 40 in Power.

I get the fact that instead of using a frame size the missile launcher's mass/volume is based on the systems Tech Level instead of frame size. A TL 25 Mk 1 launcher, per the Mass/Volume Missile launcher chart on p. 108, has a mass/volume of 0.25, costs ¢1,000,000, and consumes 1 unit of Power.

Now my problem begins, instead of a TL 25 Mk 1 launcher I now have a TL 25 Mk 10. Since I have 10 Mk should have a mass/volume of 2.5, cost ¢10,000,000, and use 10 units of power, right.

A TL 25 missile load is 50 missiles per 1 metric ton. To keep things simple I'll buy 50 missiles requiring 1 ton of mass. Affording me the option of putting out all 50 missiles in 5 rounds.

I need to store the 50 missiles so looking at the Magazine chart on p. 108 a TL 25 magazine requires 1 ton of space per 1 ton of missiles.

A flexible missile mount requires (2 x  2.5 Missile launcher mass) + 1 mass of 50 missiles = 5 + 1 = a mass/volume of 6.

A TL 25 Mk 10 Flexible Mount Launcher with a 50 missile magazine has a mass/volume of 10.5:

 2.5/Launcher + 1/50 missiles + 1/magazine + 6/flexible mount =

 3.5 (launcher & 50 missiles) + 1/magazine + 6/flexible mount =

 4.5 (launcher, 50 missiles, & magazine) + 6/flexible mount =

 10.5 (launcher, 50 missiles, magazine, & flexible mount)

The Mk 10 launcher's cost should be 10 x ¢1,000,000 = ¢10,000,000

50 missiles cost ¢2,500,000. In the Royal Cinnabar Navy (RCN) series by David Drake, Daniel Leary likes to put missiles in the tubes and the have a full magazine when deploying on a mission. So add ¢500,000 for the launcher bring the cost to ¢3,000,000.

The magazine at 1 ton costs ¢10,000.

The Flexible Mount's cost is

 Â¢10,000,000 + ¢3,000,000 + ¢150,000 = ¢13,000,000 + ¢150,000 = ¢13,150,000

Total Launcher cost is
 Â¢10,000,000/launcher + ¢3,000,000/50 missiles + ¢10,000/magazine + ¢3,150,000/flexible mount =

 Â¢13,000,000 (launcher & missiles) + ¢10,000/magazine + ¢13,150,000 flexible mount =

 Â¢13,010,000 (launcher, missiles, & magazine) + ¢13,150,000 flexible mount =

 Â¢13,160,000 (launcher, missiles, magazine, & flexible mount)

At least this is how I think the design instructions for a missile launcher works.

[markc]

1) The MK # of the attack is determined by the number of missiles launched.


2)  All missile launchers are just missiles launchers there is no MK 10 missile launcher or missile launcher MK#, if I understand the rules correctly. There is a missile launcher that fires a number of missiles and that determines the MK# of the attack.


Does that help?
MDC

[snrdg051306]

Sorry MarkC, I'm still not understanding the process of building an SM: P missile launcher to get the stats for mass, volume, power, and cost.

First off, my understanding of the rules is that a missile launcher capable of firing 10 missiles in 1 salvo or turn is designated as a Mark 10 launcher.

SM2: SS, copyright 1988 Stock# 9010 1st US Ed 11/1988, ISBN 1-55806-051-0, Step 10 p. 56 and SM2: AA, copyright 1988 Stock# 9020 1st US Ed 1988, ISBN 1-55806-060-X Step 14 p. 96 do a better job of explaining the process for constructing a missile launcher than one in SM: P Select Armaments pp. 107 - 109.

The basic steps in SM2:

Select Missile Mark number between 6 and 10.
Select Launcher Category #: Fixed = 1, Flexible = 2, Turret = 3

Launcher volume = (Missile Mk. #) x (Launcher Category #)
Launcher Cost = (Launcher Category #) x 5000

Calculate Missile Magazine volume and cost:

Magazine Volume = (Missile Mk. #) x 0.5 x (# missiles stored)
Magazine Cost = (Missile Mk. # x 100) + (# missiles stored x 10)

Total Missile Launcher Volume = (Launcher Volume) + (Magazine Volume)
Total Missile Launcher Cost = (Launcher Cost) + (Magazine Cost)

SM2: SS p. 67 has an example of a Mk. 6 turret missile launcher with a 10 missile magazine.

Launcher volume = (Missile Mk #6) x (Turret Launcher Category #3) = (6 x 3) = 18 cumets.

Launcher Cost = (Launcher Category #3) x 5,000 = (3 x 5,000) = 15,000 Elmonits.

Magazine Volume = (Missile Mk. #6) x 0.5 x (10 missiles stored) = 6 x 0.5 x 10 = 3 x 10 = 30 cumets
Magazine Cost = (Missile Mk #6 x 100) +(10 missiles stored x 10) = (6 x 100) + (10 x 10) = 600 + 100 = 700 Elmonits.

Total Launcher Volume = (Launcher volume 18) + (Magazine volume 30) = 18 + 30 = 48 cumets.

Total Launcher Cost = (Launcher Cost 15,000) + (Magazine Cost 700) = 15,000 + 700 = 15,700.

Applying the Mk. 6 turret missile launcher with a 10 missile magazine to SM: P VM Select Armaments ( pp. 107 - 109 as a TL 25 system:

Missile Launcher Mass & Volume Chart p. 108 TL 25 factor = 0.25:
Mass and volume of the launcher is 0.25 x 6 = 1.5

From the Missiles per metric ton Chart p.108 at TL 25 50 missiles mass 1 ton. Since the design is carrying only 10 the missile mass is 10 ÷ 50 = 0.2 tons.

To determine the mass of the missile magazine I go to Metric tons of magazine per metric ton of Ammo chart on p. 108, which at TL 25 is 1 ton. The magazine has a mass of 0.2 tons of missile x 1 ton of magazine = 0.2 tons of magazine.

Missile Launcher cost, text p. 109 = ¢1,000,000, I'm guessing that this is multiplied by the Launcher Mass of 1.5 = ¢1,000,000 x 1.5 = ¢1,500,000

Magazine Cost, text p. 109, ¢10,000 per magazine ton of 0.2 = ¢10,000 x 0.2 = ¢2,000

Missile Cost, text p. 109, 50,000 per missile = ¢50,000 x 10 = ¢500,000

Mounting Weapons:

Turret mount, per text p. 109:
Mount Volume = (Total Volume Firing Mechanism (FM) 1.5 x 3) + (ammo 0.2) = (1.5 x 3) + 0.2 = 4.5 + 0.2 = 4.7 kiloliters.

Mount Mass = (Total Mass FM 1.5 x 3) + (ammo 0.2) = (1.5 x 3) + 0.2 = 4.5 + 0.2 = 4.7 metric tons.

Mount Cost = Total Cost FM ¢1,500,000 + Ammo Cost ¢500,000 + ¢150,000 = ¢3,000,000 + ¢150,000 = ¢3,150,000

Total Launcher Stats:

Sorry MarkC, I'm still not understanding the process of building an SM: P missile launcher to get the stats for mass, volume, power, and cost.

First off, my understanding of the rules is that a missile launcher capable of firing 10 missiles in 1 salvo or turn is designated as a Mark 10 launcher.

SM2: SS, copyright 1988 Stock# 9010 1st US Ed 11/1988, ISBN 1-55806-051-0, Step 10 p. 56 and SM2: AA, copyright 1988 Stock# 9020 1st US Ed 1988, ISBN 1-55806-060-X Step 14 p. 96 do a better job of explaining the process for constructing a missile launcher than one in SM: P Select Armaments pp. 107 - 109.

The basic steps in SM2:

Select Missile Mark number between 6 and 10.
Select Launcher Category #: Fixed = 1, Flexible = 2, Turret = 3

Launcher volume = (Missile Mk. #) x (Launcher Category #)
Launcher Cost = (Launcher Category #) x 5000

Calculate Missile Magazine volume and cost:

Magazine Volume = (Missile Mk. #) x 0.5 x (# missiles stored)
Magazine Cost = (Missile Mk. # x 100) + (# missiles stored x 10)

Total Missile Launcher Volume = (Launcher Volume) + (Magazine Volume)
Total Missile Launcher Cost = (Launcher Cost) + (Magazine Cost)

SM2: SS p. 67 has an example of a Mk. 6 turret missile launcher with a 10 missile magazine.

Launcher volume = (Missile Mk #6) x (Turret Launcher Category #3) = (6 x 3) = 18 cumets.

Launcher Cost = (Launcher Category #3) x 5,000 = (3 x 5,000) = 15,000 Elmonits.

Magazine Volume = (Missile Mk. #6) x 0.5 x (10 missiles stored) = 6 x 0.5 x 10 = 3 x 10 = 30 cumets
Magazine Cost = (Missile Mk #6 x 100) +(10 missiles stored x 10) = (6 x 100) + (10 x 10) = 600 + 100 = 700 Elmonits.

Total Launcher Volume = (Launcher volume 18) + (Magazine volume 30) = 18 + 30 = 48 cumets.

Total Launcher Cost = (Launcher Cost 15,000) + (Magazine Cost 700) = 15,000 + 700 = 15,700.

Applying the Mk. 6 turret missile launcher with a 10 missile magazine to SM: P VM Select Armaments ( pp. 107 - 109 as a TL 25 system:

Missile Launcher Mass & Volume Chart p. 108 TL 25 factor = 0.25:
Mass and volume of the launcher is 0.25 x 6 = 1.5

From the Missiles per metric ton Chart p.108 at TL 25 50 missiles mass 1 ton. Since the design is carrying only 10 the missile mass is 10 ÷ 50 = 0.2 tons.

To determine the mass of the missile magazine I go to Metric tons of magazine per metric ton of Ammo chart on p. 108, which at TL 25 is 1 ton. The magazine has a mass of 0.2 tons of missile x 1 ton of magazine = 0.2 tons of magazine.

Missile Launcher cost, text p. 109 = ¢1,000,000, I'm guessing that this is multiplied by the Launcher Mass of 1.5 = ¢1,000,000 x 1.5 = ¢1,500,000

Magazine Cost, text p. 109, ¢10,000 per magazine ton of 0.2 = ¢10,000 x 0.2 = ¢2,000

Missile Cost, text p. 109, 50,000 per missile = ¢50,000 x 6 = ¢300,000

Missile launcher Power cost, per text p. 109, 1 x 6 = 6 Power

Mounting Weapons:

Turret mount, per text p. 109:

Mount Volume = (Total Volume Firing Mechanism (FM) 1.5 x 3) + (ammo 0.2) = (1.5 x 3) + 0.2 = 4.5 + 0.2 = 4.7 kiloliters.

Mount Mass = (Total Mass FM 1.5 x 3) + (ammo 0.2) = (1.5 x 3) + 0.2 = 4.5 + 0.2 = 4.7 metric tons.

Mount Cost = Total Cost FM ¢1,500,000 + Ammo Cost ¢500,000 + ¢150,000 = ¢3,000,000 + ¢150,000 = ¢3,150,000

The total package for the Mk 6 missile launcher in a turret with a 10 missile magazine is:

Mass/Volume = 1.5 (Launcher) + 0.2 (10 missile magazine) + 4.7 (turret = 1.7 + 4.7 = 6.4

Cost = ¢1,500,000 (launcher) + ¢2,000 (magazine) + ¢3,150,000 (turret) = ¢1,502,000 + ¢3,150,000 = ¢4,652,000. Adding the cost of the 10 missiles the cost is ¢4,952,000.

Do I have the steps right for creating a SM: P VM missile launcher, which also covers the Autocannon and projectile cannon.

[markc]

Missile launchers are different in SM:P and SM2.


My understanding SM:P
1) I was wrong in my previous statement in that I have found some text in SM:P VM page 93 very bottom of the page that states a missile launcher MK# is equal to its tech level but the number of missiles are limited by chart on page 48, the number of missiles in the flight determines the MK# of the attack.
2) Pg 95 has an example of a missile launcher creation and states; "missile launchers have no MK#."
3) If you have multiple launchers then they can add into the OB bonus as per multiple firing mechanisms.
4) On the top of page 95 it has some additional info about missile launchers that may help you out.


5) You can only mount 1 SM:P missile launcher on a hard point and that launcher no matter what tech level can fire a number of missiles per the chart on page 48. They are only limited by the depth of their magazine to the number of missiles they can fire.


6) In SM:P there is no Power template chart in the creation system that relates to missile launchers. There are only 4 charts that determine the mk# of the weapon and non of the options at the top of the charts are fore missile launchers, in SM:P. Again the mk# for the missile attack is determined by the # of missiles in the flight from page 48 of SM:P VM.




SM2
SM2 missile launchers are different from SM:P, and you have the right info based on my memory.


Does that help?
   

[snrdg051306]

I'm just not communicating well and I'm getting very frustrated.

Let's try this one more time.

Here's an example from the real world using the USS Bainbridge CGN-25. The Bainbridge mounts 2 twin arm Mark 10 Terrier SAM launchers with a 40 missile magazine for each launcher.

Can the missile launcher above be built using A-2.4 Complete Vehicle Construction Rules Armaments 8 on pp. 107 - 109?

[markc]

Yes it is represented as a single missile launcher in SM:P with a mag of 40.


MDC

[snrdg051306]

Morning MarkC,

Thanks for taking time out and, I think, finally getting me to understand the missile launcher in SM: P

I'm thinking, very dangerous for me:-), that my failure for wrapping my mind around SM: P missile launchers has a couple of factors.

The first is the using the phrase "a single missile launcher". To me this means a system capable of launching only 1 missile, which is me being too literal minded. If the

missile launcher example used in A-2.3 Heavy Ordnance Construction, which I did read through, had  built a twin arm missile launcher I'd probably have gotten a handle on designing a missile launcher sooner.

Next, is the confusion related to using the term "Mark Number (Mk #)" in relation to a missile launcher that is, again to me, not clearly explained. Mk #, in this case, appears to mean that missiles of a certain damage potential, say a Mark 10, are the only type that can be fired by the launcher.

Finally, my use of other game systems design sequences has been getting in the way.

Lets see if I can explain how to design a missile launcher and then try to created the Bainbridge's missile launcher.

Missile Launcher Design:

Concept: A twin arm flexible mount missile launcher for Mk 10 missiles equipped with a magazine containing 40 missiles.

S-1. Determine the technology level (TL) of the launcher, if different from the vehicle's TL.

Example S-1: The ship the launcher is being designed for is TL 25.

S-2. Determine the Mark Number of the missiles that can be fired from the launcher. The maximum Mark Number is equal to the TL of the system.

Example S-2: The maximum Missile Mark Number that can be launcher is a Mk. 25. In this case only Mk. 10 missiles will fit on the launcher.

S-3. Determine the maximum number of missiles that can be fired in a salvo in one combat round.

Example S-3: The launcher can fire a 2 missile salvo in a one combat round.

S-4. Determine the mass and volume of the launcher, Mass/Volume of Missile Launcher by TL, SM: P VM p. 108:

Example S-4: A TL 25 launcher has a mass/volume of 0.25, having two arms the mass/volume = 0.25 x 2 = 0.5 metric tons/kiloliters.

S-5. Determine the mass (A) any missile reloads being carried and (B) the missile magazine where they are stored.

Example S-5: The ship carries 40 missiles in a magazine giving the ship the capability to conduct missile combat from 20, launching two missiles at a time, or 40 combat rounds, single missile launches.

S-5A. Referring to the Missile per Metric Ton Chart, p. 108, 1 metric ton is equal to 50  TL 25 missiles. This design is carrying 40 missiles which has a mass of 40 ÷ 50 = 0.8 metric tons.

S-5B. A TL 25 magazine, per the Metric Tons of Magazine per Ton of Ammo(/Missiles) p. 108, is 1 ton per ton of missiles = 1 magazine ton x 0.8 tons of missiles = 0.8 tons of magazine.

S-6. Determine the costs for (A) the launcher, (B) missiles, and (C) magazine.

Example S-6:  The launcher has 2 launching mechanisms, carries 40 missiles in a magazine.

S-6A. A single launcher has a cost of ¢1,000,000, see text Missile launcher cost p. 109. This launcher of firing two missiles making the cost of the launcher as ¢1,000,000 x 2 = ¢2,000,000

S-6B. One missile costs of ¢50,000, see text Cost of Missiles p. 109, giving a total cost of 40 missiles will be ¢50,000 x 40 = ¢2,000,000.

S-6C. A magazine, see text Cost of Magazine p. 109, costs ¢10,000 per metric ton. At 0.8 tons this magazine has a price tag of ¢8,000.

S-7. Anti-Infantry capability: No or Yes. If yes is selected resolve any attack against infantry refer to the Infantry vs. Infantry Table (p. 133).

Example S-7: The launcher won't be used against infantry the answer is no, and the design moves to determine the mass, volume, and cost of the flexible mount.

S-8. Determine the type of mount used by the launcher. There are three types per the text on p. 109, Fixed, default when launcher selected, flexible, and turret.

Example S-8: This launcher is in a flexible mount to determine (A) volume, (B) mass, and (C) cost as follows:

S-8A. Volume, per text p. 109, = (Total Volume of Firing Mech. x 2) + (ammo) = (0.5 x 2) + 0.8 = 1.0 + 0.8 = 1.8 kiloliters.

S-8B. Mass, per text p. 109, = (Total Mass of Firing Mech. x 2) + (ammo) = (0.5 x 2) + 0.8 = 1.0 + 0.8 = 1.8 metric tons.

S-8C. Cost, per text p. 109, = (Total Cost of Firing Mech.) + (ammo) + ¢150,000 = ¢2,000,000 (launcher) +  ¢2,000,000 (ammo) + ¢150,000 = ¢4,008,000 + ¢150,000 = ¢4,158,000.

I'm not sure where if the magazine mass and cost should be added in with the Mount or as a separate step.

Anyway, have I got a glimmer of an idea of how to create a missile launcher?

Thanks very much for your time MarkC.

[markc]

Before I get into the nitty gritty of your above post I think these two definitions.


A) Missile Launcher- attacks must reach the target in this round. The MK # of the attack is defined by the # of missiles fired at the target based on the chart in SM:P VM. PG 28 I think but I do not have the book with me.
 The chart says a missile launcher can fire an number of missiles up to the max listed on the chart based on the targets weight.
 IMHO I think of a missile launcher in SM:P almost like a Metal Storm type system [You can do a search to find the web site in info on the system] Or like a rocket pod system that is mounted on todays helicopters or the MLRS mobile system of todays US Army.
B) Torpedo Launcher- Launches torpedoes that can spend time flying to target and do not have to be resolved the round they are fired. Torpedoes can be created to work in any medium or can be created to work exclusively in 1 medium. 


 IMHO the big question is rather the armament on the USS Bainbridge is that is it a missile launcher or is it a torpedo launcher? IMHO it is not a missile launcher but in fact a torpedo launcher that may have to be modified by House Rules to fit the system. IE it is a MK 20 torpedo launcher that can fire 2 MK 10 torpedoes every round. Or as long as it takes to reload the system. IRL it takes longer than in SM:P where IIRC the Errata says it can fire every round.
 IMHO I would allow the torpedo launcher to be designed to fire two Mk 10's vs 1 MK 20 but that is not official. But IMHO it could be extrapolated from the ruling on payload pallets. But that is just me.


Does that help with the problem you are trying to solve? And clear up some of your confusion?


MDC   

[snrdg051306]

Putting the wording on how to design a missile launcher aside, and any math errors, did I create a legal missile launcher that can be used in the SM: P universe.

Can you please provide page numbers that provide the text describing  the difference between a SM: P missile and torpedo?

I've got SP: P Tech Law VM as a pdf and did a search to locate a description of for missiles and torpedoes. My search didn't provide any results.

SM2: SS (4.3 Missiles pp. 16 -17; 4.4 Torpedoes pp. 18 -19) and AA (4.13 Missiles pp. 41 - 43; 4.14 pp. 44 -45) provide both a quick overview and then details that differentiates the two weapons.

SM2: SS Missile entry p. 16/AA Missile p. 41:

Missiles are quite distinct from Torpedoes, both in their capabilities and usage, so it would be best to get the differences straight. A Missile is a small, short range and very fast moving warhead delivery system with only a limited internal guidance system. They are only available in Mark number's 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.

Torpedoes, on the other hand, are slower warhead delivery systems with longer range; they are capable of tracking a target independently and following it for some time. Torpedoes also have internal EW generators and are available in Mark Number's 6 through 50 inclusive. Missiles are dealt with here, while Torpedoes will be handled in Section 4.4

Parameters: All missile attacks are resolved during the same Round in which they are fired.

SM2: SS Torpedo entry p. 18/AA Torpedoes p. 44:

As explained in Section 4.3, Missiles and Torpedoes are two different weapon types. Although Torpedoes are more flexible as attack delivery systems, they are slower than missiles, and easier for the intended target to evade.

Parameters: All Torpedoes may chase their targets for 1 hour (360 Rounds)

Of course SM2 torpedoes can only be launched by using a payload pallet.

Not being able to locate the SM: P descriptions for missiles and torpedoes I've been using the details provided in SM2 SS/AA.

Next, the Terrier SAM is not a Mark 10, the launcher itself is designated as Mark 10 per the article on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_Guided_Missile_Launching_Systems.

The Terrier has a range of 32 km and uses a semi-active radar homing guidance system. Based on sources I've quoted above the Terrier is a little bit of both. If the scale in SM: P is still 1 km per hex, then the Terrier appears to fit a part of the torpedo criteria. However, not having EW capability and using a semi-active radar homing guidance system fits the missile criteria better. I'd consider the AGM-12 Bullpup more of a torpedo, even though the range is shorter.

Please, don't confuse me more with the Mark # thing, that is what is really messing my head up when you talk about missiles.

Again, thanks for taking the time to straighten me out.

[markc]

From SM:P VM Errata

Missiles do not close range by a mark number.  Handle them the same as torpedoes.

 Ok When you were talking about the real life missile launchers and the military [mark #] I thought you were referring to SM2 numbers [not RL] for the launchers.


 I do not have a quote for SM:P torpedo or missile it maybe in the main book but I do not have the book right now.
 I would say that missiles are dumb weapons and anything that has guidance is a torpedo.


 I will have to get back to you on the other stuff.
MDC


 

[markc]

AHHH I just had my post eaten by the web gremlins.


Where here goes again.


Step 1 (S-1): TL of Missile Launcher is 25. This is ok.
S-2:
  Question: Where did you get this info? From my understanding of the SM:P missile launchers (ML) the attacks mark number [chart threshold] is determined by the number of missiles fired in the attack.
 Observation from chart on page 48 of SM:P VM: A ML can fire a multiple number of missiles in a round. To me this is represents a fast firing system. The system you are trying to create simply cannot fire more than 2 missiles* (*I hate to use missiles here as IMHO the term is confusing you to assume the weapon system is the same as a SM:P ML.). To me a system than can fire only 2 missiles (RL term) is in fact a torpedo launcher in SM:P.


 Do those comments make sense?


 Also from SM:P VM pg 92 Select Number of Firing Mechanisms (FM): A missile launcher may only have one firing mechanism (FM).
 So you cannot have more than 1 missile FM in a mount. IMHO this should be made more clear somewhere in the book or in the creation of weapon systems.


 I will let you comment on the above before I go on as if you cannot have more then 1 ML FM in a mount it invalidates the rest of your creation example.


MDC

[snrdg051306]

Morning MarkC,

Part of my frustration on 3/21 was that my reply disappeared three or four times.

My comment for S-2 came from the example of Gary's creating a missile launcher in SM: P VM A-2.3 Heavy Ordnance Construction p. 94

Example: Gary is making a missile launcher; so the Mark Number is based on his tech level (which is 25). It won't become relevant unit the next step. The weight of the launcher is 0.25 metric tons

However, looking through the Power Templates for Auto/Projectile Cannon, Laser/Blaster/Plasma, and Ion Cannons. I'm out to lunch.

I'll start by saying that a major difference appears to be how I understand or define a torpedo and missile. Torpedoes, most definitions I've found anyway, use the phrase

self-propelled underwater missile

. However, there are others that define the two terms as

self-propelled or powered projectiles

. In my mind the terms are inter-changeable since the only difference is the medium they fly/swim through. A torpedo swims/flies through the medium of water and a missiles flies/swims in air or vacuum.

In SM2 missiles and torpedoes a clearly defined on how they function. Missiles use launchers or payload pallets and torpedoes can only to fired from payload pallets.

SM: P appears to have restricted the missile to only a single launching mechanism and allowed the torpedo to be fired by either a payload pallet, tube (single weapon as per my experience in submarines with the USN), or launcher (multiple tubes in a single chassis or frame I guess).

In order to fire multiple missiles, say 10, with the restriction of only 1 missile launcher firing mechanism per piece of ordnance (p. 93) or mount (p. 107) 10 separate launchers and magazines are needed. The missileer can select from 1 to 10 missiles to be fired in one round of combat. A small vehicle can't fit a 10 missile system in the chassis/hull but can fit 2 missile launchers that can fire both missiles in one turn.

The only difference in in the number that can be launcher, but they are both multiples of the number of missiles that can be launched at the same time.

Since there can only be 1 missile launcher firing mechanism per piece of ordnance (p. 93) or mount (p. 107) I cannot recreate the U.S. Army's Patriot mobile missile launcher which has four launchers mounted on a trailer on a 360 degree trainable mount in azimuth and a separate mechanism to adjust elevation. The HMMV has a four tube AA missile launcher module that can rotate 360 degrees, which if the rule is true, also cannot exist in SM: P.

Since my understanding of the missile launcher rules appear to be so far off and they don't make any sense I won't be using them. A very sad thing indeed.

 

[markc]

  If it is any consolation I have been having trouble with the site also lately. I thought it might be my DSL connection as it seems they are always working at the central office.


 Yes the definitions of missile and torpedo in SM:P should be clearly stated and their differences more clearly stated.


 For your examples I would limit the magazine of the missile launcher as they can fire any number of missiles up to their magazine in a cbt turn.
 For a torpedo launcher system I would use the rules in the errata for torpedo launchers with maybe a house rule to fit it better in reality. Sort of like the rule I proposed above that said a Torpedo Launcher that can fire MK 20 torpedoes can be fitted instead to fire 2 MK 10 torpedoes in a round. To me that is a good house rule that might become official. In fact you might ask Defendi to make it official or maybe Marc R if you do not hear from Defendi.


 I can also relate to your frustration as I had many of the same problems when I picked up the book and started to go through it. Then I thought about making my own system by mod'ing the rules and that is when I stopped working on the spreed sheet I sent you. [The only error I remember is an error in the crew generation and some/most of the errata not included.]


 Again I still think it can be done with a could of mods but if you have a better system please let me know.


MDC

[snrdg051306]

From my understanding the magazine represents the number of combat rounds that the launcher can fire. A launcher system that is capable of firing 10 missiles in a salvo can be conduct combat from 1 to 10 turns without a magazine. Add a ten round magazine the launcher can be used for a total of 2 to 20 turns.

Traveller also has three ways to mount weapons which are fixed, turret, and bay. Fixed and turret appear to be equal to SM: P mounts. The bay is probably a flexible mount since the have about the same limited firing arc. For the most part turrets, with the exception of GURPS: Traveller, can house a maximum of three missile launchers, lasers or sandcasters. Plasma and Fusion Guns are limited to single and double turrets. The Particle Accelerator can only be mounted in a single. GURPS: Traveller has more flexibility for missiles, lasers, and sandcasters. GURPS: Vehicles allows for designs mounting a wider number, provided you pay the appropriate costs.

Here is my solution:

Fixed launchers 1 FM on either a strong point or hard point

Flexible Mount multiple FMs of compact or small can be mounted on either strong or hard point. Medium to Ultra-Large must be mounted on hard points. This would be something like the Patriot's launcher or the vertical launch systems employed for the Tomahawk on some sub and surface combatants

Turret Mounts three or four FMs and must be mounted on a hard point.
Standard turret like on WW I and WW II surface combatants.

[Marc R]

With lengthy posts, it pays to hit preview, then post, so if it goes sideways you can hit the back key to recover it. . .when my connection gets spotty I get into the habit of doing a block-n-copy on long posts.

[markc]

 IMHO the FM need a magazine no matte what. You need ammo for the FM it does not include 1 shell (round).


 IMHO maybe an adaption of the payload pallet to be mounted on mobile systems would work better? ie a payload pallet of 6 for the MLRS system and then you could pick the MK # of the Torpedoes it fires.
 The above can also be adapted to VLS on DD and other such ships with guided missiles.


 Maybe some real world research would yield some info on how to port it over to SM:P rules. Again I see that any House Rules you come up with might be made official to help people create and recreate ships of the past and future. But see my sig for my role at ICE.


MDC 

[Defendi]

In case you missed it torpedoes don't have firing arcs as such.

[markc]

 Does it matter if torps have a firing arc? IMHO no as the torp maneuvers on its own so it can basically have any arc (flight path) after firing.


 Defendi;
 How would you construct a MLRS with SM:P VM? And how would you model the USS Bainbridge's single 2 missile (IMHO actually torps in SM:P) launcher? What do you think of the idea that you can modify a MK 20 Torp Launcher to fire 2 MK 10 torps?


Thanks
MDC