Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Cyradon => Topic started by: Old Man on November 27, 2012, 09:38:43 PM
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Hi all,
Anyone give any thought or have suggestions for the break down of the (few, several, "about three") thousand refugees? (Aside from PCs that is. :) ) Or do GMs prefer it to be up to them to define it, aside from notable NPCs (Grayson and whomever is introduced in modules)?
Regards,
Old Man
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IMHO one of the big things is where the people are going and how to feed them. So I think some notes or input is very important.
MDC
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IMHO one of the big things is where the people are going and how to feed them. So I think some notes or input is very important.
MDC
That was something my wife and I were pondering - what % of the refugees decide to vacate Belynar for the surrounding small towns (Nabdur, Sefnar and others not named) in attempts to create their own communities. The Ritual may have created a season's worth of ripe fields - but that will need people to harvest (and survive harvesting) and then till for upcoming years (the Ritual being roughly around early Spring in the Cyradon calender if I recall correctly).
(Then my mind wanders to the overall politics of the area. Grayson, et al, declared Belynar a Free City but what about the surrounds? Though once Shival lands, and now abandoned, do more conservative Elven (Janieal) elements declare the lands as Arali or do more liberal (Desnian) elements let the Humans (and their Allies) divide the restored lands as they see fit (such as the land grants in Ruins of Kausur).)
Regards,
Old Man
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As to politics I think it all happens and takes some time to work out. Maybe even a few fights breakout here and their with merc companies being countries proxies.
If we are talking about after the ritual with new fertile land I think the cities would try and get people out into the fields ASAP. ie get the food before something happens to it.
Why? Because how would they know it is permanent? Maybe the new land undergoes some flux and its boarders change. This could happen soon and if land is lost at a quick rate then it would spur the quest for the other stones (I think it was stones. It has been a while since I got very deep into the product)
MDC
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Unless the majority of the refugees are adventurers, I believe that most of them would settle outside/around Belynar. Even after the ritual, the city seems like a dangerous place, with lots of unexplored areas. And there are the monsters and constructs of the coliseum that can brak free anytime. The refugees will need a home and food. The ruined Belynar doesn't seem fit for this task.
I thought that it was the Janieal who defended the regugees against the conquering attitude of the Desnian? I think I remember the Desnian trying to convince/force Grayson to be a protectorate. The other political factions opposed to this.
Yes, the Ritual was during the night on the first day of the new year. There were three comets on the sky. I wonder if the other rituals (with the other tears of life) will restore that much land after that (no more comets). And do you think the other rituals will need to be held in Belynar again?
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As to politics I think it all happens and takes some time to work out. Maybe even a few fights breakout here and their with merc companies being countries proxies.
If we are talking about after the ritual with new fertile land I think the cities would try and get people out into the fields ASAP. ie get the food before something happens to it.
Why? Because how would they know it is permanent? Maybe the new land undergoes some flux and its boarders change. This could happen soon and if land is lost at a quick rate then it would spur the quest for the other stones (I think it was stones. It has been a while since I got very deep into the product)
MDC
Actually the decay rate (if any) of the Ritual is a good point. That's something I'd like to see in the game canon if modules are written post-ritual. Also, whether there is further use of the Tears of Life. (Ruins of Kausur, if canon, has one - so was it used and what effect occurs?)
Mark - what do you mean about Merc company proxies? For the Elves? Or for factions among the refugees?
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I thought that it was the Janieal who defended the regugees against the conquering attitude of the Desnian? I think I remember the Desnian trying to convince/force Grayson to be a protectorate. The other political factions opposed to this.
Yes, the Ritual was during the night on the first day of the new year. There were three comets on the sky. I wonder if the other rituals (with the other tears of life) will restore that much land after that (no more comets). And do you think the other rituals will need to be held in Belynar again?
I may have the two Elven factions reversed. (I tend to do that... :) )
"second night of the Festival of Arene" - That is after the 1st month of Spring (Cilia, Cyradon PDF pg 18) - Whether further comet appearances or Belynar's location are required, I guess is either up to individual GMs or perhaps ICE will write it into the canon in upcoming modules ...
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As to politics I think it all happens and takes some time to work out. Maybe even a few fights breakout here and their with merc companies being countries proxies.
If we are talking about after the ritual with new fertile land I think the cities would try and get people out into the fields ASAP. ie get the food before something happens to it.
Why? Because how would they know it is permanent? Maybe the new land undergoes some flux and its boarders change. This could happen soon and if land is lost at a quick rate then it would spur the quest for the other stones (I think it was stones. It has been a while since I got very deep into the product)
MDC
Actually the decay rate (if any) of the Ritual is a good point. That's something I'd like to see in the game canon if modules are written post-ritual. Also, whether there is further use of the Tears of Life. (Ruins of Kausur, if canon, has one - so was it used and what effect occurs?)
Mark - what do you mean about Merc company proxies? For the Elves? Or for factions among the refugees?
I was thinking more about the elves (the militant ones which I do not remember their name). IMHO if they can cause trouble behind the scenes and gain from it I think they would do so as it seems to be their political nature. But again I may be reading more into it than was there.
MDC
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I was thinking more about the elves (the militant ones which I do not remember their name). IMHO if they can cause trouble behind the scenes and gain from it I think they would do so as it seems to be their political nature. But again I may be reading more into it than was there.
MDC
Ah I see. The Desnian faction (as Zut mentioned). A Desnian takeover of the restored lands would be an interesting plot but I guess hard to engineer (given their distance) unless Royal Roads were used. Perhaps Desnia has allies closer to Belynar.
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Yes or maybe they just want a foothold to begin with. They might also stir up trouble between groups so as they are off balance or unable to react when the Desnian forces move in.
MDC
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Yes or maybe they just want a foothold to begin with. They might also stir up trouble between groups so as they are off balance or unable to react when the Desnian forces move in.
MDC
Given the size of the restored lands (240 mi diameter is what - 3*120*120 - 43k square miles) - I could see small groups (friendly or not) taking over and restoring old Shival Manors and forming their own little frontier strongholds. You might get a sort of Wild West feel to the area - here's the prairie and out there's the desert (Devastation) and the roads tie the settlements together.
So we could take the restored lands map and posit a number of new locales (such as the crossroads from Ruins of Kausur or Kausur itself) for PCs to encounter/explore ...
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Yes, also once it has been shown it has been done, will it start a race for the other tears. What will people pay for the Tears? Can you fake a Tear? IMHO lots of good story lines.
I also then to think of it as like in the gold rush, once it is known gold was discovered then the race was all in all of its glory and ugliness. Also the beasts of the devastated lands will protect the lands as I tend to think there will be very little place for them in the newly awakened lands.
MDC
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Yes, also once it has been shown it has been done, will it start a race for the other tears. What will people pay for the Tears? Can you fake a Tear? IMHO lots of good story lines.
I also then to think of it as like in the gold rush, once it is known gold was discovered then the race was all in all of its glory and ugliness. Also the beasts of the devastated lands will protect the lands as I tend to think there will be very little place for them in the newly awakened lands.
MDC
That is a good point. If it is generally known that the Narsi stopped making Tears after 12, and now one is gone, I can see a need to find what the Narsi did with the other eleven and secure them. Perhaps not necessarily by Grayson and company, but more likely by the Cyrads and the Delvers who came back with them. (Perhaps they have knowledge of the 11 and seed quests, via other agencies, to start searches - such as the Ruins of Kausur adventure.)
The closer everyone gets to finding all 11, the harder it likely becomes. Especially if other groups (Arali, Schirae, Nagah, etc.) get in on the act. A Cyradon Adventure Path ...
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That is good to know as I keep forgetting to also include in my posts that I have not delved deeply into the material for a while.
Another good old plot out of the old west is to escort a group of settlers out to the new lands and construct some basic defense so they can get to farming. Or ye old help clear out the area.
MDc
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Markc, Zut and whoever has run Cyradon - what did you do for the economy of the refugees? Still do traditional coin based (with folk having brought coin and/or Arali/other visitors having coin) or invent a barter system?
Also, anyone think the scenario/region works better if there are more refugees? 30k rather than 3k? Perhaps they arrive in waves? ...
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IMHO, I think a barter system would spring up. People would carry coin if they had sometime to grab some before leaving, but if they were prepping for a long journey essentials would displace coin if you knew there was not going to be any where you could buy things. I think you might quickly get to a place where money is not worth much and food is worth a lot.
I also like to say to people "So how are you going to fix your Gold tonight?" In other words you cannot eat gold to survive.
I do not know about the refugee concept as I just did (a lot of) editing of the text (not published text), and thus had a few thoughts on how I would do things. But I think if the refugee's did come in waves it would allow for a more orderly transition vs a "we are starving and need food now" or we cannot accept any more people in the city so turn out any new comers into the wilds (unless they have lots of food).
Also IIRC are there not vaults that contain fresh food and supplies in the city? Or am I inserting some of my own game world into the setting? If so then finding the vaults and getting supplies is very important for everyone as well as trying to plan a way toward the future.
A twist might be that when you open a vault you cannot reseal it again and you have to use the stuff inside ASAP. This would mean that the cities government might not want people opening up the vaults until supplies got to a specific level.
MDC
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IMHO, I think a barter system would spring up. People would carry coin if they had sometime to grab some before leaving, but if they were prepping for a long journey essentials would displace coin if you knew there was not going to be any where you could buy things. I think you might quickly get to a place where money is not worth much and food is worth a lot.
I also like to say to people "So how are you going to fix your Gold tonight?" In other words you cannot eat gold to survive.
Did you run such? I was wondering how to portray it in a game context (as the source-book doesn't really address it iirc) especially for adventure rewards. (I guess you can do, "kill X for me and I can give you a week of room and board, plus X, Y and Z tools/items.)
Refugee numbers I was pondering in terms of Grayson's ZOC (zone of control). 3000, some % of warriors, seems easy prey to a good sized Schirae raid .... (Depending on their populations and the nearby Gryphon Aerie size.) :)
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I did not run the game world. My book fell apart shortly after arriving and I was having some trouble with other books at the time also and was a little disillusioned with the physical book and trying to get another copy thing.
At one time I was going to run it but it also took a while to get out so I had to do my own thing that was loosely based on the Cyradon idea.
MDC
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About the storage rooms, yes, there are some of them in Mount Belnos. I can't remember exactly where it is (as I don't have the book with me), but at least you can find a reference to it in the Adventure Seeds, at the end. A Rhona elder had a vision about it and the PC are "volunteers" to accompagny him. Fresh, well-preserved food for everybody for some months.
Also, about the number of fighters, I suppose that a lot of them are in good physical condition, as they were forced to travel in mountains. So it means a lot of healthy people, not an easy prey. Mentally, that's something else!
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I will be running the Cyradon adventures here soon enough. Anybody have any tips as far as things that were a little tricky to run in the modules?
As far as the number of refugees, I was thinking there was a lot more than just 3000. For some reason I keep thinking in the hundred thousands, I am not sure why. I know I read something in one of the modules or the Cyradon core book about the number of refugees, I just have to find it now.
It might have been just a vague reference.
Ok, I've looked through the main book and all I found were vague references to a few thousand, I have no idea where I got the idea of "hundred thousands".
Bruce
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I think that thousands of people will take a looong time to pass through the portal (probably a few hours), I can't imagine how it could be for a hundred thousand! And the Orsai were pursuing the Tarahiri, so they were not far behind. They would have catch the latecomers.
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Handling a refugee camp of 3,000 is a huge task - trying to handle one for hundreds of thousands would require a full government, complete civil support, and entire logistics/supply line.
3,000 is the correct number, and the group can survive on the supplies found in storage of Belynar until such time as they are able to situate themselves and begin to settle. Also, hundreds of thousands would instantly draw an army from the various other races, while 3,000 simply draws iinterest. The only issue with the 3,000 would be that a party of 5-8 adventuring caliber people would certainly be visible and known among the populace. Certainly if someone goes out on a mission or achieves something of note in Belynar, the achievement would be well known and their "fame" would spread through most of the population. (Think of a star athlete at a major university of 20K+ students - everyone knows them and most know of their success after a big game)
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Interestingly enough, barring arrival of adventuring parties made up of mostly local races (see the thread on "which races do your PCs play in Cyradon"), the PCs would likely be the only adventuring party as well (based on GM's preference as to % of adventurers in the populace, see that thread in the Rolemaster forum iirc).
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Considering they are refugees escaping from a battle, I would expect a higher than normal percentage of adventuring types, but still these individuals should stand out pretty easily. Instead of the adventurers answering a call for people to voyage out, it is more likely that the leadership would come to them asking for their services. If you are starting at level it may go the traditional way, but expect them to rise in fame far more quickly than they would in most campaign settings.
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Considering they are refugees escaping from a battle, I would expect a higher than normal percentage of adventuring types, but still these individuals should stand out pretty easily. Instead of the adventurers answering a call for people to voyage out, it is more likely that the leadership would come to them asking for their services. If you are starting at level it may go the traditional way, but expect them to rise in fame far more quickly than they would in most campaign settings.
Actually, I'd love to see some further detail on who escaped (hence this thread). For example - aside from Grayson, what other military notables? How many nobles? How many in their retinues? The "adventuring individuals" may more likely be various soldiers, escorts, household guards etc. who've left, retired from or escaped their service obligations.
It might be conceivable that there aren't many commoners at all - left behind in the retreat or not protected at all. (As the modules are developed, we are starting to keep track of named NPCs. Have to check with Nicholas to see how that might become a reference available to GMs online.)
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Considering they are refugees escaping from a battle, I would expect a higher than normal percentage of adventuring types, but still these individuals should stand out pretty easily. Instead of the adventurers answering a call for people to voyage out, it is more likely that the leadership would come to them asking for their services. If you are starting at level it may go the traditional way, but expect them to rise in fame far more quickly than they would in most campaign settings.
Actually, I'd love to see some further detail on who escaped (hence this thread). For example - aside from Grayson, what other military notables? How many nobles? How many in their retinues? The "adventuring individuals" may more likely be various soldiers, escorts, household guards etc. who've left, retired from or escaped their service obligations.
It might be conceivable that there aren't many commoners at all - left behind in the retreat or not protected at all. (As the modules are developed, we are starting to keep track of named NPCs. Have to check with Nicholas to see how that might become a reference available to GMs online.)
I too think that the refugees are more capable than the common populace. But I'm not sure about having less commoners because, as the way I see Grayson, I doubt he would have fled with mostly soldiers only. I don't think he would have left the people in Tarahir alone with the invaders.
I agree that more NPC descriptions would help a lot. :)
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Zut,
Good point. Likely whomever in the cities' population of merchants, crafts-persons, etc. could escape, would be there. Then perhaps stragglers from the countryside (which can give you a small collection of farmers with and without animals etc.).
Could even just whip up a random refugee table ...
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I tend to think of a departure like that in "300"
A small but strong armed force along with the mass of the populace.
However for the most part your adventuring populace would come from out of the 300 (because in this case they didn't fight to the death). Some may be from general population, but as HARP is high adventure, I would expect the majority of heroes to be extreme heroes and not just the average Joe who ended up adventuring.
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Extreme 1st level Heroes. :)
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In that sense, Rising Stars.....