RMU spell: Change profession

[Thot]

[...]
The thing about the expertise skills now is that you don't need to develop them forever. For example, +50 in Footwork is generally going to be plenty. +75 in Multiple Attacks gets you that second attack.

And having +100 AND an additional +50 in OB gets you a third.

So, yes, the pure fighter is going to be a better fighter, but that's not a valid comparison because the pure fighter doesn't have the magic. [...]

But what you said about fighter skills applies to Magic just as much: Having the tiniest amount of healing magic will go a long way for the pure Fighter, and of course he will have all kinds of magical artifacts that amount to the same thing as knowing magic intrinsically.

You should be comparing the fighter/healer to a corresponding semi profession; a semi is also going to have a very limited set of expertise skills, and I think the fighter/healer is surpassing that. The fighter/healer is also surpassing them significantly in number of spell lists. Extreme specialization will always pay off, it's the semis that are rendered irrelevant and inferior by changing professions.

Except the, say, "Combat Medic" class I just made up as a semi between a Fighter and a Healer can do BOTH magic and combat skills improvement EVERY level, instead of switching professions every other level. Depending on the type of campaign, it may take a lot of actual play time between levels, which means the profession switcher will have to a be a lot more patient AND will be especially at a disadvantage when it comes to Open lists of their realm or realms.

A Combat Medic at level 20 will know a few Open lists and his Base lists (which may be a bit smaller in scope than actual Healer lists, but still more powerful at level 20 than Healer lists at level 10) up to level 40 (though overcasting at -400 isnÄ't something I'd recommend, there are all kinds of circumstanes where that knowledge can be helpful). The profession switcher will only be able to get to level 20 at max, and if he wants to use his DP efficiently, he will only know them to level 10.

Seriously, guys. Try. It. Out.

[tbigness]

Sorry this is not the story telling that I want to play or the system I want to be a part of. If you want to change your profession the it is only one way and for me a non-profession level in between with level being consecutives leveling (not going back to level 1). Honestly it is your game and like my stipulation mentioned, you can add what you want. I did not see anyone back your thoughts here, but that does not mean everybody hates the idea. It is just not my idea of play for this system.

[Cory Magel]

Both are unproblematic, as anyone who ACTUALLY builds a few examples will easily see. And at this point, I am unwilling to discuss this whole subject with anyone who hasn't done so.

For the sake of us all, let's just assume that not a single person on the forums has.

[Thot]

[ at this point, I am unwilling to discuss this whole subject with anyone who hasn't done so.

For the sake of us all, let's just assume that not a single person on the forums has.

What is it that makes you believe you'd be forced to post doodoo in a thread that you don't like? Just don't click on the reply button, and be happy, Cory.

[Thot]

Sorry this is not the story telling that I want to play or the system I want to be a part of. [...]

Well, that's a valid reason to be against the use of something in one's own campaign, of course.

Thanks, everyone, I think I found my answer: Level 15 for "change the whole skilling" profession change, and level 25 for "from now on, learn with the cost of the new profession" profession change.

[Wolfwood]

Sorry, this thread popped up when I clicked on "updated threads" and I thought it was a new thread. Still not sure where to click to see posts that have been made since my previous visit...

I think this delves rather deep into the questions of "What are professions, anyway?" and "What are skills / what is competence?"

If we understand profession as a certain kind of combination of genetic heritage and environmental factors, we are talking about the interplay of inborn talents and the opportunities offered by the environment. Basically, it is a very strong basis to consider one's profession: you have certain genetic factors that make you more likely to be good at certain skills, but whether or not the environment allows you to develop those skills is also important. A "mage" born in a tribe that only values brute strength and physical skills would have a hard time getting a nurturing and positive childhood, for example.

Now, if you have a spell changing the "profession" of such a character, what do you actually change? Are you changing their genetic aptitude, or are you changing their values and attitudes as well? The above mage would probably have negative experiences of brutes and the lifestyle of their tribe - even if their genetic talents were changed, I think they would likely not suddenly see those talents as something to strive towards.

Hence, if you change the "profession" of a character and also want to change their development costs, you would have to not only change them genetically, but also to change their entire world view. In essence, they would be a completely different character.

In short: I would not allow the existence of such a spell or ritual.

[jdale]

Sorry, this thread popped up when I clicked on "updated threads" and I thought it was a new thread. Still not sure where to click to see posts that have been made since my previous visit...

In the upper right corner, there's a link "Unread Posts" which will show you that. It's easy to overlook!

[katastrophe]

I have read this thread from the beginning and made some comments along the way. I still do not see where there is a need for this "profession change" spells or even for a profession change in general. I understand that in RMC and in some RMSS versions of NPCs there are multiple classes listed (and honestly I thought it was unnecessary there as well).

If there is an anticipation that a PC or NPC will require multiple classes, why not just use no-profession. In actuality, since every skill is available to everyone, there is no need for the profession change. All one is really doing is trying to get the cheapest cost for the skills they want when switching from one class to the other. The GM could just allow the player to choose what skills they will want cheaply just cost adjust those.

As for spell lists, the GM can just swap base and open lists allowances. That would be a better and simpler solution.

[nash]

I have read this thread from the beginning and made some comments along the way. I still do not see where there is a need for this "profession change" spells or even for a profession change in general. I understand that in RMC and in some RMSS versions of NPCs there are multiple classes listed (and honestly I thought it was unnecessary there as well).

Generally if there are multiple Professions listed it means "use the first one you have the book for it".  Eg some will be from companions and the last should be a profession from the core book.

[Cory Magel]

I thought this horse was good and well buried. 

In actuality, since every skill is available to everyone, there is no need for the profession change. All one is really doing is trying to get the cheapest cost for the skills they want when switching from one class to the other. The GM could just allow the player to choose what skills they will want cheaply just cost adjust those.

As for spell lists, the GM can just swap base and open lists allowances. That would be a better and simpler solution.

Precisely. The only reason to allow profession changes is to get skills cheaper. Any other reason given is an excuse to do that. At best it simply shows a lack of understanding how the profession and skill system is balanced.

[Malim]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.
It should be possible!

[nash]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.
It should be possible!

No idea about Middle Earth, but most of the "multi-classing" I've seen in Shadow World falls into two categories:
* Character is a profession from a Companion; so a second (or third) from a core book is given.
* Character is a member of Loremasters/Navigators/Unlife group so has a second profession to give access to extra lists.

[Cory Magel]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.
It should be possible!

You're talking about NPC's.

If someone wants to allow multi-classing no one is going to tell you you can't. It's your game, do what you want. The vast majority of us who understand system balance are just going to tell you it'll screw with that to varying degrees, which is precisely why it's not a system option.

If you aren't worried about that and want high powered PCs, go for it.

[pantsorama]

Sorry, this thread popped up when I clicked on "updated threads" and I thought it was a new thread. Still not sure where to click to see posts that have been made since my previous visit...

I think this delves rather deep into the questions of "What are professions, anyway?" and "What are skills / what is competence?"

If we understand profession as a certain kind of combination of genetic heritage and environmental factors, we are talking about the interplay of inborn talents and the opportunities offered by the environment. Basically, it is a very strong basis to consider one's profession: you have certain genetic factors that make you more likely to be good at certain skills, but whether or not the environment allows you to develop those skills is also important. A "mage" born in a tribe that only values brute strength and physical skills would have a hard time getting a nurturing and positive childhood, for example.

Now, if you have a spell changing the "profession" of such a character, what do you actually change? Are you changing their genetic aptitude, or are you changing their values and attitudes as well? The above mage would probably have negative experiences of brutes and the lifestyle of their tribe - even if their genetic talents were changed, I think they would likely not suddenly see those talents as something to strive towards.

Hence, if you change the "profession" of a character and also want to change their development costs, you would have to not only change them genetically, but also to change their entire world view. In essence, they would be a completely different character.

In short: I would not allow the existence of such a spell or ritual.

While I agree with your conclusion of not to develop such a spell, it is deeply weird to think that one genes predispose you to a profession.  Evolution works on time scales beyond any cultural artifact, let alone something so ephemeral as a person's line of work.

[Cory Magel]

If we understand profession as a certain kind of combination of genetic heritage and environmental factors, we are talking about the interplay of inborn talents and the opportunities offered by the environment.

While I agree with your conclusion of not to develop such a spell, it is deeply weird to think that one genes predispose you to a profession.  Evolution works on time scales beyond any cultural artifact, let alone something so ephemeral as a person's line of work.

Firstly, you're ignoring half of what they said. Environmental factors. This includes how you grew up. What you were exposed to, experiences, what and how you were taught etc.  Still, it seems fairly obvious to me there are people who just are better at certain things that, seemingly, have little to do with 'environmental' factors.

Regardless, RM simulates one of both of those things. Just as you can't change your 'DNA' so to speak, you also cannot change your past. Can you learn things you aren't already good at? Of course, it just takes longer (read: costs more Development Points).

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Let's mention, once again, that what RM calls a "profession" isn't related to one's actual profession, job or activity. In that matter, a RM's "profession" is closer to a "genetical predisposition template": it tells how one person is gifted or, on the contrary, inept at learning a skill.
Regardless of how clever one is, how good one's teachers are, and that one spends the rest of one's life learning magic in the best magic academy of the world, if one starts with the "Barbarian" profession, learning any magical skill always remains... expensive.

[pastaav]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.

Nothing prevents you in RMU from learning spell lists from other professions if you are ready to pay the DP price (provided the GM in game allow you access to learn the spell lists).

The "change profession option" does not add anything really new to the game excpect messing with the cost structure if you can take any skill you want. Lowering the cost for skills you have not bought yet and raising the cost for diminishing return skills is a no brainer if allowed. This is why multi classing is such bad idea in RM.