RMU spell: Change profession

[Thot]

[...]
The thing about the expertise skills now is that you don't need to develop them forever. For example, +50 in Footwork is generally going to be plenty. +75 in Multiple Attacks gets you that second attack.

And having +100 AND an additional +50 in OB gets you a third.

So, yes, the pure fighter is going to be a better fighter, but that's not a valid comparison because the pure fighter doesn't have the magic. [...]

But what you said about fighter skills applies to Magic just as much: Having the tiniest amount of healing magic will go a long way for the pure Fighter, and of course he will have all kinds of magical artifacts that amount to the same thing as knowing magic intrinsically.

You should be comparing the fighter/healer to a corresponding semi profession; a semi is also going to have a very limited set of expertise skills, and I think the fighter/healer is surpassing that. The fighter/healer is also surpassing them significantly in number of spell lists. Extreme specialization will always pay off, it's the semis that are rendered irrelevant and inferior by changing professions.

Except the, say, "Combat Medic" class I just made up as a semi between a Fighter and a Healer can do BOTH magic and combat skills improvement EVERY level, instead of switching professions every other level. Depending on the type of campaign, it may take a lot of actual play time between levels, which means the profession switcher will have to a be a lot more patient AND will be especially at a disadvantage when it comes to Open lists of their realm or realms.

A Combat Medic at level 20 will know a few Open lists and his Base lists (which may be a bit smaller in scope than actual Healer lists, but still more powerful at level 20 than Healer lists at level 10) up to level 40 (though overcasting at -400 isnÄ't something I'd recommend, there are all kinds of circumstanes where that knowledge can be helpful). The profession switcher will only be able to get to level 20 at max, and if he wants to use his DP efficiently, he will only know them to level 10.

Seriously, guys. Try. It. Out.

[tbigness]

Sorry this is not the story telling that I want to play or the system I want to be a part of. If you want to change your profession the it is only one way and for me a non-profession level in between with level being consecutives leveling (not going back to level 1). Honestly it is your game and like my stipulation mentioned, you can add what you want. I did not see anyone back your thoughts here, but that does not mean everybody hates the idea. It is just not my idea of play for this system.

[Cory Magel]

Both are unproblematic, as anyone who ACTUALLY builds a few examples will easily see. And at this point, I am unwilling to discuss this whole subject with anyone who hasn't done so.

For the sake of us all, let's just assume that not a single person on the forums has.

[Thot]

[ at this point, I am unwilling to discuss this whole subject with anyone who hasn't done so.

For the sake of us all, let's just assume that not a single person on the forums has.

What is it that makes you believe you'd be forced to post doodoo in a thread that you don't like? Just don't click on the reply button, and be happy, Cory.

[Thot]

Sorry this is not the story telling that I want to play or the system I want to be a part of. [...]

Well, that's a valid reason to be against the use of something in one's own campaign, of course.

Thanks, everyone, I think I found my answer: Level 15 for "change the whole skilling" profession change, and level 25 for "from now on, learn with the cost of the new profession" profession change.

[Wolfwood]

Sorry, this thread popped up when I clicked on "updated threads" and I thought it was a new thread. Still not sure where to click to see posts that have been made since my previous visit...

I think this delves rather deep into the questions of "What are professions, anyway?" and "What are skills / what is competence?"

If we understand profession as a certain kind of combination of genetic heritage and environmental factors, we are talking about the interplay of inborn talents and the opportunities offered by the environment. Basically, it is a very strong basis to consider one's profession: you have certain genetic factors that make you more likely to be good at certain skills, but whether or not the environment allows you to develop those skills is also important. A "mage" born in a tribe that only values brute strength and physical skills would have a hard time getting a nurturing and positive childhood, for example.

Now, if you have a spell changing the "profession" of such a character, what do you actually change? Are you changing their genetic aptitude, or are you changing their values and attitudes as well? The above mage would probably have negative experiences of brutes and the lifestyle of their tribe - even if their genetic talents were changed, I think they would likely not suddenly see those talents as something to strive towards.

Hence, if you change the "profession" of a character and also want to change their development costs, you would have to not only change them genetically, but also to change their entire world view. In essence, they would be a completely different character.

In short: I would not allow the existence of such a spell or ritual.

[jdale]

Sorry, this thread popped up when I clicked on "updated threads" and I thought it was a new thread. Still not sure where to click to see posts that have been made since my previous visit...

In the upper right corner, there's a link "Unread Posts" which will show you that. It's easy to overlook!

[katastrophe]

I have read this thread from the beginning and made some comments along the way. I still do not see where there is a need for this "profession change" spells or even for a profession change in general. I understand that in RMC and in some RMSS versions of NPCs there are multiple classes listed (and honestly I thought it was unnecessary there as well).

If there is an anticipation that a PC or NPC will require multiple classes, why not just use no-profession. In actuality, since every skill is available to everyone, there is no need for the profession change. All one is really doing is trying to get the cheapest cost for the skills they want when switching from one class to the other. The GM could just allow the player to choose what skills they will want cheaply just cost adjust those.

As for spell lists, the GM can just swap base and open lists allowances. That would be a better and simpler solution.

[nash]

I have read this thread from the beginning and made some comments along the way. I still do not see where there is a need for this "profession change" spells or even for a profession change in general. I understand that in RMC and in some RMSS versions of NPCs there are multiple classes listed (and honestly I thought it was unnecessary there as well).

Generally if there are multiple Professions listed it means "use the first one you have the book for it".  Eg some will be from companions and the last should be a profession from the core book.

[Cory Magel]

I thought this horse was good and well buried. 

In actuality, since every skill is available to everyone, there is no need for the profession change. All one is really doing is trying to get the cheapest cost for the skills they want when switching from one class to the other. The GM could just allow the player to choose what skills they will want cheaply just cost adjust those.

As for spell lists, the GM can just swap base and open lists allowances. That would be a better and simpler solution.

Precisely. The only reason to allow profession changes is to get skills cheaper. Any other reason given is an excuse to do that. At best it simply shows a lack of understanding how the profession and skill system is balanced.

[Malim]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.
It should be possible!

[nash]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.
It should be possible!

No idea about Middle Earth, but most of the "multi-classing" I've seen in Shadow World falls into two categories:
* Character is a profession from a Companion; so a second (or third) from a core book is given.
* Character is a member of Loremasters/Navigators/Unlife group so has a second profession to give access to extra lists.

[Cory Magel]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.
It should be possible!

You're talking about NPC's.

If someone wants to allow multi-classing no one is going to tell you you can't. It's your game, do what you want. The vast majority of us who understand system balance are just going to tell you it'll screw with that to varying degrees, which is precisely why it's not a system option.

If you aren't worried about that and want high powered PCs, go for it.

[pantsorama]

Sorry, this thread popped up when I clicked on "updated threads" and I thought it was a new thread. Still not sure where to click to see posts that have been made since my previous visit...

I think this delves rather deep into the questions of "What are professions, anyway?" and "What are skills / what is competence?"

If we understand profession as a certain kind of combination of genetic heritage and environmental factors, we are talking about the interplay of inborn talents and the opportunities offered by the environment. Basically, it is a very strong basis to consider one's profession: you have certain genetic factors that make you more likely to be good at certain skills, but whether or not the environment allows you to develop those skills is also important. A "mage" born in a tribe that only values brute strength and physical skills would have a hard time getting a nurturing and positive childhood, for example.

Now, if you have a spell changing the "profession" of such a character, what do you actually change? Are you changing their genetic aptitude, or are you changing their values and attitudes as well? The above mage would probably have negative experiences of brutes and the lifestyle of their tribe - even if their genetic talents were changed, I think they would likely not suddenly see those talents as something to strive towards.

Hence, if you change the "profession" of a character and also want to change their development costs, you would have to not only change them genetically, but also to change their entire world view. In essence, they would be a completely different character.

In short: I would not allow the existence of such a spell or ritual.

While I agree with your conclusion of not to develop such a spell, it is deeply weird to think that one genes predispose you to a profession.  Evolution works on time scales beyond any cultural artifact, let alone something so ephemeral as a person's line of work.

[Cory Magel]

If we understand profession as a certain kind of combination of genetic heritage and environmental factors, we are talking about the interplay of inborn talents and the opportunities offered by the environment.

While I agree with your conclusion of not to develop such a spell, it is deeply weird to think that one genes predispose you to a profession.  Evolution works on time scales beyond any cultural artifact, let alone something so ephemeral as a person's line of work.

Firstly, you're ignoring half of what they said. Environmental factors. This includes how you grew up. What you were exposed to, experiences, what and how you were taught etc.  Still, it seems fairly obvious to me there are people who just are better at certain things that, seemingly, have little to do with 'environmental' factors.

Regardless, RM simulates one of both of those things. Just as you can't change your 'DNA' so to speak, you also cannot change your past. Can you learn things you aren't already good at? Of course, it just takes longer (read: costs more Development Points).

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Let's mention, once again, that what RM calls a "profession" isn't related to one's actual profession, job or activity. In that matter, a RM's "profession" is closer to a "genetical predisposition template": it tells how one person is gifted or, on the contrary, inept at learning a skill.
Regardless of how clever one is, how good one's teachers are, and that one spends the rest of one's life learning magic in the best magic academy of the world, if one starts with the "Barbarian" profession, learning any magical skill always remains... expensive.

[pastaav]

Most of the hero`s in both shadow world and middle earth are multi classing it.

Nothing prevents you in RMU from learning spell lists from other professions if you are ready to pay the DP price (provided the GM in game allow you access to learn the spell lists).

The "change profession option" does not add anything really new to the game excpect messing with the cost structure if you can take any skill you want. Lowering the cost for skills you have not bought yet and raising the cost for diminishing return skills is a no brainer if allowed. This is why multi classing is such bad idea in RM.

[munchy]

A question would be how the character deals with the skills he has already learnt once such a spell hit him. Basically the idea here is to rewire his brain so that he can learn skills differently with a different aptitude towards skills.
How does that affect things he has already learnt? Will he have massive difficulties using spells if he was changed from magician to fighter as an example. A fighter's brain can learn and cast simple unspecialised spell but not the complicated things a pure spell user usually learns and cast. So, I think a serious question would be whether there should be mali applied to his spell casting or would he acutally lose the ability to cast certain spells as his brain is rewired?
Would this also apply to skills? Would a former thief now sorcerer fail in the attempt of unlocking a door with his lock picking kit as his brain no longer really is focussed on those manual skills but aimed at more mental abilities?
I would also consider this spell bringing too much of the risk of players trying to cheat and giving too much of cheating options to the spell user.
There were rules for changing professions or even having two professions in RM2 which were doable but actually had their drawbacks which made most of the players I know refrain from going that way.
I also always like Rolemaster's approach that in theory everyone could learn everything, some thing easier, some thing not so easy. We had our fair share of pure spell users swinging a blade in melee and they were not that bad at it - if came at a cost but they felt it worth the investment.

[MisterK]

Let's mention, once again, that what RM calls a "profession" isn't related to one's actual profession, job or activity. In that matter, a RM's "profession" is closer to a "genetical predisposition template": it tells how one person is gifted or, on the contrary, inept at learning a skill.
Regardless of how clever one is, how good one's teachers are, and that one spends the rest of one's life learning magic in the best magic academy of the world, if one starts with the "Barbarian" profession, learning any magical skill always remains... expensive.

I would tend to agree with that statement, but it means that the term "profession" is so badly chosen that it would have been a major improvement in any RM iteration to change it to "archetype" or something similar that conveys the true intent instead of trying to mislead the reader into thinking that it is actually a profession (in a way somewhat similar to the WHFRP careers, which you can actually change in WHFRP because the system is designed for that).

The problem with that is, this interpretation makes it actually more rigid than classes in systems that allow multiclassing, and the capability to develop any skill given sufficient effort only partially offsets that rigidity because, in most meaningful cases, the cost-to-effect ratio is low enough to discourage anyone except those who do it purely for roleplay reasons (consistency over efficiency).

To put it succinctly, in RM "you can try to learn anything, but be prepare to do it very ineffectively if you're not hardwired for it as a result of your predisposition and initial exposure."

In addition, the "initial exposure" (nurture) part was partly undermined by the cultural adolescence development ranks that exist in multiple editions: if profession is partly the result of early exposure, why do adolescence return comes in the form of ranks instead of coming in the form of cost alteration ? Adolescence ranks cement the idea that all exposure is modelled as skill ranks, while skill costs are innate and predetermined at birth (as a matter of fact, you cannot even make a case for childhood experience, since languages are being acquired from a young age and the effect is also expressed as ranks).

I can accept the static, unchanging definition of cost allocation as the outcome of genetic lottery. I would at least expect that an appropriate term was used in the rulebook. "Profession" is a pretty poor choice.

And if you accept that skill dev costs are indeed predetermined by genetic lottery, then it stands to reason that any spell that would change that would be a spell that alters the genetic code of the target. I think there was a genetic manipulation spell list somewhere in the RM2 companions, but I would expect such a spell to be 1) pretty high level, and 2) quite impactful on the target beyond the change in skill dev costs (stats, appearance, and so on - after all, players usually select the stats to favour the profession they choose, which means that a genetic makeup changing spell would also alter stats, in effect rewriting the entire genetic code of the person.

For the Shadow World afficionados, I would accept that kind of effect to be available from specialised Lords of Essaence facilities and, maybe, from specific individuals that delved into that kind of magical research (such as Ulya Shek and Andejaan, probably Jenkyna, and possibly Drül Churk). Now learning how to operate the facilities correctly is quite another matter, and getting the named NPCs to do what you want is likely to blow up in your face. But it is *technically* possible.

[jdale]

I would tend to agree with that statement, but it means that the term "profession" is so badly chosen that it would have been a major improvement in any RM iteration to change it to "archetype" or something similar that conveys the true intent instead of trying to mislead the reader into thinking that it is actually a profession (in a way somewhat similar to the WHFRP careers, which you can actually change in WHFRP because the system is designed for that).

Archetype might be better. I assume the main objective was to avoid using "class" because, by comparison with the other game available at the time RM was first created, classes were far more rigid. You got a fixed package each level, you could not switch classes later, and that was pretty much the end of the story. In later editions of D&D those restrictions began to loosen up considerably, but that's how it started.

The problem with that is, this interpretation makes it actually more rigid than classes in systems that allow multiclassing, and the capability to develop any skill given sufficient effort only partially offsets that rigidity because, in most meaningful cases, the cost-to-effect ratio is low enough to discourage anyone except those who do it purely for roleplay reasons (consistency over efficiency).

Early multiclassing still didn't come with any flexibility. You picked your combination of classes at character creation and stuck with it. Class changing didn't come to D&D until... 3rd edition I think? (Except 1st edition AD&D had the weird class change option where you could change classes but needed to completely give up use of the original class until the new one equaled it. That's still very rigid.)

To put it succinctly, in RM "you can try to learn anything, but be prepare to do it very ineffectively if you're not hardwired for it as a result of your predisposition and initial exposure."

I think that's an exaggeration. A fighter isn't going to be able to learn the full suite of mage abilities, but they can learn some spells and use them fine. You can afford to learn some things outside your profession, it just comes at some expense.

Maybe there was more of a gap in RM2 where profession bonuses were per level rather than per rank.

In addition, the "initial exposure" (nurture) part was partly undermined by the cultural adolescence development ranks that exist in multiple editions: if profession is partly the result of early exposure, why do adolescence return comes in the form of ranks instead of coming in the form of cost alteration ? Adolescence ranks cement the idea that all exposure is modelled as skill ranks, while skill costs are innate and predetermined at birth (as a matter of fact, you cannot even make a case for childhood experience, since languages are being acquired from a young age and the effect is also expressed as ranks).

Ranks are knowledge. If characters came out of adolescence with no ranks and only adjusted skill costs, they wouldn't know anything, they wouldn't be able to do anything. Costs are aptitude.

Adolescence giving fixed numbers of ranks shouldn't be interpreted as kids necessarily having spent the same amount of time learning those things. They may have gotten remedial training in the things they struggled with. A more realistic model of childhood would let them get more ranks in the skills they enjoyed learning (which generally maps to aptitudes), but in practice coupling the fixed cultures ranks plus a level of DP development generates a character who is shaped by both their culture and their own aptitudes. Together it works pretty well in my opinion.

I can accept the static, unchanging definition of cost allocation as the outcome of genetic lottery. I would at least expect that an appropriate term was used in the rulebook. "Profession" is a pretty poor choice.

And if you accept that skill dev costs are indeed predetermined by genetic lottery, then it stands to reason that any spell that would change that would be a spell that alters the genetic code of the target. I think there was a genetic manipulation spell list somewhere in the RM2 companions, but I would expect such a spell to be 1) pretty high level, and 2) quite impactful on the target beyond the change in skill dev costs (stats, appearance, and so on - after all, players usually select the stats to favour the profession they choose, which means that a genetic makeup changing spell would also alter stats, in effect rewriting the entire genetic code of the person.

"Genetic" is too deterministic. We are the product of our genes plus our environment. There are absolutely things you can gain aptitude for based on early childhood experience. For example, it's well known that kids who get exposed to multiple languages (bilingual or more) are better at learning completely new languages later on.

Rewriting the genes will have some effect but a lot of what we are looking at here is the product of development. Rewriting genes won't undo or redo past development. What you need to rewire is the brain. With magic, sure, that should be possible. But if you rewire your mind, you aren't going to be the same person afterwards. You want to remove aptitudes, you probably have to remove knowledge too. You need to insert new defining memories and experiences. Changing professions mid-stream is not the right model for that. The right model is creating a new character based on the new profession. That will correctly model that you might have gained something but you have lost a lot too.

Creating your character stats from scratch as the new profession also resolves most of the balance concerns, unless doing so is something you can do easily or frequently, in which case it's multiplying your capabilities and still an issue.