Topic: Counterspells and other Instantaneous Spells

[jurasketu]

So. How does everyone play counterspells?

Do you allow detection and counters of utility spells?

Do you require a combat perception roll (or at least waive the -50 penalty) of someone NOT engaged in combat or actively performing actions?

Do you allow a character actively looking for spellcasting a bonus perception or automatic detection of spellcasting?

What about Mass Deflections? Do you wait until the first missile goes off - and then the player declares the scaled up deflections which is then applied to subsequent missiles? Or do you have the player declare Mass Deflections immediately following missile declarations?

What about Bladeturns? Players declare attacks and parries. Then bladeturns are declared? Do you wait for an attack roll - and THEN declare bladeturns?

[WoeRie]

So. How does everyone play counterspells?

I allow automatic detection if the opponent is not trying to hide his spells. It is still necessary to cast a Medium Arcane Lore: Spells to see which spell is cast and how it is scaled, to invest the correct amount of PP. The lore roll gets Easy for Utility, Light if the player knows the spell and Hard if he couldn't learn it at the moment.
If the opponent tries to hide the spell it gets trickier, I use Combat Perception to see if somebody is casting without loosing the action (or Quick Perception as only action this round).

What about Mass Deflections? Do you wait until the first missile goes off - and then the player declares the scaled up deflection which is then applied to subsequent missiles? Or do you have the player declare Mass Deflections immediately following missile declarations?

He has to decide the scaling after he sees the attack, so after the first missile. I don't allow to change the scaling afterwards.

What about Bladeturns? Players declare attacks and parries. Then bladeturns are declared? Do you wait for an attack roll - and THEN declare bladeturns?

The player has to declare Bladeturn before he knows if he is hit, but after an opponent declared to attack him.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Spell casting in HARP (in the core rules) is an obvious process. You always know when somebody is casting a spell. Well, you do as long as you are facing him....

In combat, you need a Combat Perception roll to figure out that a magic user with whom you are not engaged is casting a spell.

However, unless you take a skill like "Spell Lore" you won't be able to figure out what is being cast until it is done. So it does not matter what spell the foe is casting (and no, you do not need to know for counterspell), you just have to decide you are going to attempt to counter it.

When you declare a spell, you MUST declare what scaling options you are using -- no changing your mind after casting as begun.

Instantaneous spells - in general you can cast these while performing other actions, and they can be declare at any point up to the dice being rolled (at that point, the attack has ALREADY BEEN MADE and it is too late). I also do not declare monster OB/DB splits for parrying (I do make a habit of writing them down, so that I can show players later what the values are if they ask -- and I allow players to write their down as well, showing them when they take their turn -- no changing after decision made though).

The big exception on instantaneous spells is other spells. You cannot cast an instantaneous spell while casting another spell. You either don't cast it, OR you MUST STOP casting the first spell and then cast the instantaneous one.

[Mattiyaho]

 How I have played counterspell in the past is that if the individual counter spelling is not in combat he does not receive the -50 if he is actively looking for spell casting, but to make sure a spell is being cast and that the mage just isn't twitching in pain sence magic or spell lore is useful. I always required my players to verify a spell is being cast before counterspelling. If the player is in combat i did not reqire a seprate perception roll to notice a spell being cast by the opponent just a free sence magic or spell lore to make sure. I had one player who would try to continue with counter spelling even when he faild to verify that a spell was being cast. So eventually a opponent caught on and faked him out. The player lost only the bace one power point for wasting his counterspell and learned not to use the fact the player knows he failed a roll doesn't mean the character does. Now if a opponent that is not engaged with the counterspelling casts a spell then the one counterspelling needs to make a perception at a -50 to see it then it doesn't matter what spell is being cast if they can scale counterspell high enough to counter it.
 Another thing is that I dont have my players declare actions when their init comes around they act. I like this method for speeding up combat even though some players think it is a little unrealistic.

[jurasketu]

Thanks for the replies...

Rasyr-

I realize the sigil manifests itself visually and should be obvious to see for anyone looking - but does that occur at the target location or the spellcaster location or perhaps both? And is it REALLY glowing visible - or just plain sight visible. At a distance, glowing sigils would be easy to see - something "just" visible might not be.

The question becomes, does my counterspeller need to see the spellcaster or the target (assuming that the spellcaster is not the target) or EITHER?

If it glows fairly brightly at the spellcaster, then no real problem unless the counterspeller's line of sight is completely blocked rather than merely obscured by vegetation or other stuff. Clearly, in that case, spellcasting reveals a spellcaster's position (I have no problem with that - seems like a good thing in terms of play balance - but it matters in terms of tactical play).

The way I played it when it came up was that I said it glowed (easy to see at a distance) and that the counterspeller needed to see the target OR the spellcaster with the implication that the sigil formed at the caster and beamed towards the target (it was a nasty Elemental Ball) and so the counterspeller who wasn't in position to the see the caster but COULD see the target was able to counter the spell (and thus saving the day). The situation reversed itself later in the sprawling outdoor encounter and again I ruled the counterspeller (who was focused on only that) was able to detect the casting of the spell at the caster location despite being unable to see the target.

Later I was unsure. So instead of asking the question too specifically, I looked to see what folks generally did (after perusing the forum and fan FAQ).

So, now that I've posed the question more specifically - did I do it "right" the way most folks understand it or have I created yet another house rule (won't be the first one) that I might need to revoke at the expense of continuity?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The sigil glows as it is being formed. Also, there are different levels of "glowing". Think of it as glowing along the lines of a candle, perhaps 1 candle fore every 2 PP. In a lit area, the glow is less noticeable, in a darker area, more so.

The magical sigil forms at the caster, not at the target. Once complete it then travels to the target.

Counterspell cannot affect a spell once it has been cast. So even if it starts at caster and "beams" to the target, at that point there is nothing to do.

Specifically, in your fireball example, basically what moves from caster to target in that situation is a flame grenade, that explodes once it reaches its destination (or if it hits something in the way first).

[jurasketu]

Ah. That makes sense. Gotta be able to see sigil formation. Relative glow makes sense as well - gives counterspeller chance to judge strength (and hence relative importance). I can make that work reasonably well (and amend my working house rule interpretations appropriately).

Of course, that now brings up another question. Putting aside balls which can obviously contact an obstruction given their size is specified - what about other ranged spells? Can they snake through vegetation or other partial obstructions? What size are they? Heck, I'll keep things simple, if the spellcaster can target something through partial obstruction, then their sigil formation can be seen through the partial obstruction. Sounds like the tactical use of the Darkness Spell to screen spells from long range counterspells seems plausible and useful.

Thanks

Robin

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

All spells are line of sight. If they cannot see their target, they cannot attack. It is that simple. If they can see their target, then they have to worry about ranges...

As for judging spell strength -- I would suggest leaving that very vague (i.e. "it doesn't look very powerful", not "it looks like 8 PP"). The caster of a counterspell should never know the amount of PP required before they cast the spell (the spell draws the PP that it needs if the caster has it). In fact, since it requires 1 round per 5 PP, that would likely mean that the glow increases as they cast the higher level spells.

And also, even with the glow, the sigils should not illuminate more than a 5' radius at most. Ever see one of those chemical glowsticks? That is the sort of glow I am referring to.

And if you add the rules from College of Magics, then things can change even more.....

[Adunakhor]

The sigil glows as it is being formed. Also, there are different levels of "glowing". Think of it as glowing along the lines of a candle, perhaps 1 candle fore every 2 PP. In a lit area, the glow is less noticeable, in a darker area, more so.

The magical sigil forms at the caster, not at the target. Once complete it then travels to the target.

Rasyr

maybe I missed something, but I cannot find anything about a glowing sigil in the HARP Core Rules.
Which book, chapter or paragraph are you refering to?

Thanks
Andreas

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Part of it is in the books and part of it is my interpretation (and intention).

On page 106 of the core book, it is mentioned about the spell matrices (i.e. sigils) being how spells are formed.

In my own personal view, the gestures and words involved in the casting of a spell creates the spell matrix as a visible manifestation in front of the caster (i.e. the words call and roughly shape the mana, while the gestures help refine it in the matrix). My personal interpretation is that this also glows slightly (think of those chemical glow sticks for basic intensity).