Author Topic: Ending Combat Slog  (Read 1069 times)

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Offline Tywyll

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Ending Combat Slog
« on: March 25, 2022, 09:23:10 AM »
Several times I've run RM combat (or MERP or any other similar system), it seems I run into the situation where an opponent is stun-locked and the pcs are beating on it but...simply never finish it off? They never luck out with a fatal crit. meanwhile, the thing is stunned or stunned no parry and they spend a few rounds continuing to attack it (this is for mindless targets or creatures that fight to the death obviously).

When do you call it quits and just give them the win? Is there any hard and fast rule for 'finishing' an opponent in that sort of situation?

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2022, 10:51:44 AM »
  There's a point when the GM just has to declare a "dispatch". The target isn't getting out of combat so the point is moot.
  My gaming group is made up of wargamers and when we play on tabletop, some of us could look at the forces and positioning and call the game. Yes, maybe the losing side could make some miraculous rolls or the guy who has the advantage could make a blunder but wargaming is about consistency, not wishful thinking. Good commanders place their faith in their strategies based on averages, not extremes.

If average rolls are preventing a player or NPC from avoiding a losing situation, call it done and over, then move the game forward. I'll also point out that reasonable people don't fight to the death. When a person (especially a NPC) sees no way to win, they may choose to surrender.
 
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2022, 11:14:47 AM »
Well, I guess that is the difference between mindless/super dedicated opponents and more normal ones. But, in order for it to feel different/special, there needs to be the normal combats where opponents will flee or give up once gotten to a certain point.

I assume the characters are not very high in level. Is that the case? I have noticed the same thing in the games I am playing in; the low level characters have such low bonuses that even when the target is stunned there is no guarantee of a hit, non-the-less a killing blow. Once the characters of a decent level, with good bonuses, this should mostly correct itself.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2022, 11:21:10 AM »
I'll also point out that reasonable people don't fight to the death. When a person (especially a NPC) sees no way to win, they may choose to surrender.
 

This is how I usually avoid the slog too. Orcs will try to surrender. Wolves will try to flee. Sure, a golem might fight to the end, but creatures like that are relatively rare.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2022, 12:57:41 PM »
I assume the characters are not very high in level. Is that the case? I have noticed the same thing in the games I am playing in; the low level characters have such low bonuses that even when the target is stunned there is no guarantee of a hit, non-the-less a killing blow. Once the characters of a decent level, with good bonuses, this should mostly correct itself.

If the target is completely overwhelmed, the attackers should also be able to outmaneuver and at least flank, maybe get someone behind the foe, get around a shield, etc, so don't forget to add those things too.

I generally have not had to stop a combat before it's done (surrender counts as done), but I have handwaved past all the initiative and non-attack actions just to quickly roll a couple rounds of attacks to settle things. In principle, you can call it over, but it just doesn't feel as satisfying.

I do tend to have foes not parry. No parrying increases the intensity of the fight and one way or another it will be over quickly. Foes parry when there is a specific tactical reason (e.g. an important individual is temporarily advantaged and needs to buy a round or two), but outside of that it lets the PCs decide the intensity of the engagement.

On the other side of things, give the foes a healer and those enemies who are not actually dead may also not really be out of the fight. So that addresses things in an opposite way....
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2022, 08:59:04 PM »
We call it 'mopping up'. When there's no reasonable way the foe can win.

It helps if you're abstracting experience into fights, missions, or gaming sessions so they players don't feel like they're missing out on exp.

We've also cut most stun results in half. We still want them, but the excess amount we were seeing was basically just slowing the game down in the grand scheme.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2022, 07:52:19 PM »
If the target is completely overwhelmed, the attackers should also be able to outmaneuver and at least flank, maybe get someone behind the foe, get around a shield, etc, so don't forget to add those things too.
Just today I was running the 2nd level thief PC of a player who could not make it. I had successfully snuck behind the enemy, so had rear and surprise. But, because of the crappy level and attack bonus, even rolling an UM 83 meant that I missed. Entirely. This is why I say characters of levels 1-3 are children and should not be let out of the house. Too weak.
We've also cut most stun results in half. We still want them, but the excess amount we were seeing was basically just slowing the game down in the grand scheme.
If you don't like the accumulation of stun rounds, you could only take the highest number of rounds of stun, So, if a combatant has 2 rounds of stun already, the only way to up that is by them getting a hit that gives them 3 or more rounds of stun. And if that happens, you don't add them, but the higher amount of stun replaces what they have (they go from 2 rounds of stun to 3 rounds of stun). The same can be done for the action modifiers that come from some critical; only take the highest one.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2022, 02:00:00 AM »
Just today I was running the 2nd level thief PC of a player who could not make it. I had successfully snuck behind the enemy, so had rear and surprise. But, because of the crappy level and attack bonus, even rolling an UM 83 meant that I missed. Entirely. This is why I say characters of levels 1-3 are children and should not be let out of the house. Too weak.
Rear is +35 and no shield for defender. Surprise is +25 (+20 with RMSS) and no DB from parry. A second-level thief would have at least 3 ranks in their main weapon, plus a bit of extra bonuses, let's say +25 OB. So a roll of 83 translates as 163, with the defender having only QU and magical DB. A short sword crits AT 14 or 17 at 110 (a rapier crits earlier) and hits at 70 or lower for any AT (a rapier hits at *61* or lower).
If the strike was a miss, it's not a problem with level 2 characters, but it might be a problem with opposition calibration :)

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2022, 07:53:07 PM »
They had a regular bonus of +20 because they were a hobbit with a big Strength negative mod. A couple of things we did differently were: +20 for Surprise (we are playing RMC, so I guess we got that wrong) and the target got their full DB, which he probably shouldn't have as he was not in melee. I am not the GM, so I don't know what the guy had for defenses, but whatever they were, it resulted in a miss.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2022, 09:27:38 AM »
   My group played a session last night and the party encountered a handful of Mook bandits torturing a prisoner. I took out the guy with the whip with an arrow, hitting with an excess of 200... The GM asks me if I'd like to roll the critical and I always waive the rolls and take the adjudicated kill. The critical tables make for entertaining, casual games but Mooks aren't worth the time and effort of the additional rolls. The bandits were so outclassed that I would have called the battle as the party had complete surprise.

   Calling a fight's outcome gives a player a way out of a very ugly battle. I played NPC OPFOR in a campaign where the player had drawn all of his forces into defensive perimeter with heavy artillery in the center. I had a smaller, but technologically superior force and moved my ground units in an encirclement and committed a massed air drop of my infantry.
Kevin: He what?
Bryan: There's infantry landing on top of your LZ. Do you want to schedule a tabletop battle?
Kevin: *Head on the desk* No...just randomly roll the casualties, have everybody retreat to the ships and lift off.
Bryan: Are you sure?
Kevin: Yes.

  Nothing compliments your ability as a commander as your opponent choosing to have the GM roll losses randomly instead of fighting out an actual battle. 
 
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Ending Combat Slog
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2022, 01:52:11 AM »
It comes from other gaming experience, and a penchant for house rules from my RM2 GMing days in the late 80s, but anyone surprised only received Magic DB from items and that was it.

No Quickness DB; no Materials DB due to having the time to find the missing dragon scale on the beastie for the one round.
With the mods listed by others, it ensures some kind of damage was always done by ambushes.

No two RM games are alike, so your game will vary but that was what worked in my games to avoid the “but they were right where I had ‘em!” besides treacherous Fumbles!