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Are people having trouble with Fantasy?
Hurin:
I don't think people have a problem with being inspired by our own world, or making a fantasy Africa. Where some people have problems are when a race or culture that is clearly inspired by their own (or by racist tropes about their own) is described as inherently evil or corrupt. Orcs and Drow in particular have for example been given physical feature which, when linked with the concept of inherent evil, seem to perpetuate racist stereotypes.
I understand that, and I agree that the stereotypes need to be addressed. What I don't like is the further measure Wizards of the Coast has adopted lately, namely, of entirely decoupling character race from stat bonuses. In the revised DnD rules, a Halfling can start the game with a greater racial Strength bonus than a Minotaur. Note I mean here not just a greater Strength bonus, but a greater racial strength bonus. That makes no sense to me.
EltonJ:
--- Quote from: Hurin on December 21, 2021, 06:07:41 PM ---I don't think people have a problem with being inspired by our own world, or making a fantasy Africa. Where some people have problems are when a race or culture that is clearly inspired by their own (or by racist tropes about their own) is described as inherently evil or corrupt. Orcs and Drow in particular have for example been given physical feature which, when linked with their inherent evil, seem to perpetuate racist stereotypes.
I understand that and agree that the stereotypes need to be addressed. What I don't like is Wizards of the Coast's latest measures of decoupling character races from things like stat bonuses. In the revised DnD rules, a Halfling can start the game with a greater Strength bonus than a Minotaur. That makes no sense to me.
--- End quote ---
It doesn't make any sense to me, either. And I'm going to buy the D&D brand.
MisterK:
--- Quote from: Hurin on December 21, 2021, 06:07:41 PM ---I understand that, and I agree that the stereotypes need to be addressed. What I don't like is the further measure Wizards of the Coast has adopted lately, namely, of entirely decoupling character race from stat bonuses. In the revised DnD rules, a Halfling can start the game with a greater racial Strength bonus than a Minotaur. Note I mean here not just a greater Strength bonus, but a greater racial strength bonus. That makes no sense to me.
--- End quote ---
This is one example of a good idea (cultural heritage) gone bad because other factors come into play. The cultural prevalence is OK when all races/species/ethnic groups have a similar morphological base. So it *might* be OK with various human ethnic groups, and half-elves, and half-orcs (and maybe even elves and orcs if you stretch it a bit). But minotaurs and halflings are not in the same morphological base and that should be taken into account - but then, it makes the character creation a bit more complex (new parameter, to be balanced with something else).
I was always interested in the old D&D Dragonlance Taladas minotaurs - strong and tough as minotaurs are because of their morphology, yet not stunted in other attributes because they had developed a complex, structured and organised culture, the kind of species you cannot balance easily, but that makes perfect sense : physical advantage because of morphology, mental advantage because of culture.
You can easily solve the problem by throwing balance out the window - give credit where credit's due, nothing more and nothing less. Don't try to artifically balance species just because of gameplay issues. Yes, Laan and Loari/Linaeri are dominant species when compared to Shay folk [Shadow World reference here] - that's written in the world description, why try to cancel it technically ? Just make sure the players know what they are doing and why, and understand the in-world consequences of their choices. If everyone wants to play a high elf, why not ? Sure, you get the high stat modifiers. You also get the reputation, the peer pressure, the cultural drive to excel at any cost, the appearance that makes you stick like a sore thumb in most environments, and the family feuds.
And once in a while, an all-Shay party, just country boys and girls who barely escaped the razing of their hamlet by your run-of-the-mill hill gark raid, will put the high-elf view in perspective.
But that kind of psychological balancing is not easy to do for generic systems.
Cory Magel:
I would probably never blanket label an entire humanoid race as evil (it's kinda overdone regardless of if I think there's a social meaning behind it), but I would be separating the idea of True Evil (as an inherent property) from the interpretation of groups that consider each other enemies.
But on the topic of the Drow, I don't associate that with a race. I associate it with the darkness and light as an universal concept throughout history, even back to times when no one even knew about other races. Darkness has always been the boogeyman and it has nothing to do with skin color. It has to do with the historical fear of darkness. In darkness it's easier for things to sneak up on you. No one ever says 'He was thrown into a well lit dungeon!' or 'We ventured into the musty and bright cave.' When the moon blots out the sun ancient cultures would freak out. When it's night time is often colder. I'm sure I can come up with more, but I'm sure I've made my point.
Are there people who want to label it negatively? Sure. But just like when I was a kid the gangs didn't own or change the meaning of the colors blue and red. They were still just blue and red to the vast majority of the world. Rational people didn't think anyone wearing blue or red was a gang member.
OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol:
jdale, thank you for your links, though I knew and read at least the articles by James Mendez Hodes.
I think the main problem with modern fantasy is that it has foremost its roots in Tolkien's works. And, well, as much as Tolkien may not have intended to be racist, he was a product of his society. When a white man who is part of a white colonial empire creates a world where the Holy Land (Valinor) is in the West, where the beings closest to the gods are tall, fair-skinned and with blond hair, whereas the "always evil" races allied with the incarnation of Satan, clearly named "Easterlings", are from the East, and are diminutive, black or with Asian traits, it's… hard not to wonder whether he was just "innocently" racist without realising it (as in "he didn't see such a POV as being racist"), rather than intentionally…
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