Topic: dispelling a spell

[assur]

I find the wording of "Dispelling a spell" (spell law p.49) confusing.

When a spell is cast in order to dispel another, an RR is made. The level at which the dispelling spell is cast is the attacking level and the level at which the spell to be dispelled was cast is the defending level.

I understand it means: The spell is dispelled if the SCR of the dispelling spell is grater than the SCR of the spell to be dispelled.
If I understand correctly, it is not a RR roll. The RR roll is different from an SCR roll. Wording is deceiving and should be changed.

[Hurin]

I think it is an RR roll without any modifiers other than the spell level vs. opposing spell's level. The sentence after the one you quoted notes that modifiers generally do NOT apply (as they normally would on an RR). So, instead of all the normal RR mods, the only mod is the difference in levels between attacking and defending spell.

So, I think you are sort of right insofar is it is not a normal RR.

[assur]

I think it is an RR roll without any modifiers other than the spell level vs. opposing spell's level. The sentence after the one you quoted notes that modifiers generally do NOT apply (as they normally would on an RR). So, instead of all the normal RR mods, the only mod is the difference in levels between attacking and defending spell.

The formula for a RR is (spell law p.44):
RR = d100OE + Character RR Bonus – 2x Attacker Level + Other Modifiers

You suggest every time a spell defend about being dispelled it rolls:
dispelling RR = d100OE  - dispelling (attacker) level  + being dispelled (defender) level
and must be equal or greater of the SCR of the dispelling spell to have success?
Very little spells will save against being dispelled.

It is similar, but in no way the same as a RR roll.
In the RR formula, attacker level is the level of the caster or of the spell?
I'd like to have an official answer by a ice folk.

[rdanhenry]

You suggest every time a spell defend about being dispelled it rolls:
dispelling RR = d100OE  - dispelling (attacker) level  + being dispelled (defender) level

It's 2x level for each, but otherwise correct.

Very little spells will save against being dispelled.

That depends on the levels of the two casters. And the SCR result.

In the RR formula, attacker level is the level of the caster or of the spell?
I'd like to have an official answer by a ice folk.

Technically, it is the "casting level" of the spell. The core rule is that this is the same as the level of the caster. There are, however, two optional rules that change this (SL, p. 39), using either the ranks that the caster has in the list or the PP spent on casting to determine the casting level. All of this is very old RM core/options.

Thus, using the core rule, it is the levels of the casters which matter. A very experienced caster will have a fairly easy time undoing a novice's spell, while the novice will have a harder time undoing the master's work.

[jdale]

We're talking about RMU here to be clear (since this forum is for all versions of RM).

The spell being dispelled needs to make its RR by beating the spellcasting roll (because this is how all RRs vs spells work). The spellcasting roll was successful if it was at least a 1. So, if the Dispel was cast with a very low spellcasting roll, it will be easy to make that RR. If Dispel was cast with a very high spellcasting roll, it's quite hard to make that roll.

To... ahem... spell it all with an example:

Vedran is an 8th level magician with 13 ranks in Dispelling Ways, with a total SCR bonus of +33 in that list. He encounters a giant octopus which he suspects is actually an illusion. In fact, he is correct; it's a phantasm cast by a 10th level illusionist. He casts Dispel Essence I (a 4th level spell), and rolls a 12, getting a total of 45. The dispel is successfully cast, now the phantasmal octopus makes a RR. It rolls a 50, and then to take into account the respective casting levels the phantasm gets +20 (it was cast by a 10th level character) and the dispel penalizes it by -16 (it was cast by an 8th level character) for net level modifiers of +4, and the total roll is therefore 54. That beats 45; the phantasm does not waver. However Vedran is seeing attacks go harmlessly right through the octopus, and it's not dealing any damage, so he's sure of himself and casts another Dispel Essence I. This time he rolls a 60 for a total SCR of 93; the phantasm rolls 42  +4 for a total of 46. The octopus vanishes.

[assur]

Quote

    Very little spells will save against being dispelled.

That depends on the levels of the two casters. And the SCR result.

I missed that in the SCR roll you add the number of skill ranks the caster has in the spell list being used and not the skill bonus. Is it right?

Quote from: assur on October 19, 2023, 09:58:03 PM

    You suggest every time a spell defend about being dispelled it rolls:
    dispelling RR = d100OE  - dispelling (attacker) level  + being dispelled (defender) level

It's 2x level for each, but otherwise correct.

I missed the 2x level of target/defender because it's not in the bold formula but in the text below the formula.

Quote

    In the RR formula, attacker level is the level of the caster or of the spell?
    I'd like to have an official answer by a ice folk.


Technically, it is the "casting level" of the spell. The core rule is that this is the same as the level of the caster. There are, however, two optional rules that change this (SL, p. 39), using either the ranks that the caster has in the list or the PP spent on casting to determine the casting level. All of this is very old RM core/options.

Thus, using the core rule, it is the levels of the casters which matter. A very experienced caster will have a fairly easy time undoing a novice's spell, while the novice will have a harder time undoing the master's work.

Is there an option to cast at a lower caster level?

We're talking about RMU here to be clear (since this forum is for all versions of RM).

The spell being dispelled needs to make its RR by beating the spellcasting roll (because this is how all RRs vs spells work). The spellcasting roll was successful if it was at least a 1. So, if the Dispel was cast with a very low spellcasting roll, it will be easy to make that RR. If Dispel was cast with a very high spellcasting roll, it's quite hard to make that roll.

To... ahem... spell it all with an example:

Vedran is an 8th level magician with 13 ranks in Dispelling Ways, with a total SCR bonus of +33 in that list. He encounters a giant octopus which he suspects is actually an illusion. In fact, he is correct; it's a phantasm cast by a 10th level illusionist. He casts Dispel Essence I (a 4th level spell), and rolls a 12, getting a total of 45. The dispel is successfully cast, now the phantasmal octopus makes a RR. It rolls a 50, and then to take into account the respective casting levels the phantasm gets +20 (it was cast by a 10th level character) and the dispel penalizes it by -16 (it was cast by an 8th level character) for net level modifiers of +4, and the total roll is therefore 54. That beats 45; the phantasm does not waver. However Vedran is seeing attacks go harmlessly right through the octopus, and it's not dealing any damage, so he's sure of himself and casts another Dispel Essence I. This time he rolls a 60 for a total SCR of 93; the phantasm rolls 42  +4 for a total of 46. The octopus vanishes.

Thanks for the example, it is very clear. I misunderstood the dispelling spell paragraph.

[jdale]

>I missed that in the SCR roll you add the number of skill ranks the caster has in the spell list being used and not the skill bonus. Is it right?

Yes, that's right. The SCR bonus is your number of ranks in the list plus your Realm Stat bonus (once) plus the various modifiers from table 4-2. It's much smaller than the total skill bonus, which only applies for spell mastery (and potentially using the spell list for a lore maneuver e.g. about related magic).

> I missed the 2x level of target/defender because it's not in the bold formula but in the text below the formula.

For a character, we pre-calculate the RR bonus against a given realm with 2x their level, their stat bonus, etc. So in Spell Law in the section about RRs it just says "Character RR Bonus" and that includes all those things that you were supposed to already add up on the character sheet. (Although the text summarizes what that "Character RR Bonus" will be.)

For a spell, we don't have that pre-calculated but the spell doesn't have stats or a race so the only thing that is left to give a modifier is the casting level.

> Is there an option to cast at a lower caster level?

If for some reason you wanted to do so for purposes of reducing spell parameters (e.g. duration, radius) or making it easier to resist, I would certainly allow that with a Spell Mastery maneuver. I would not reduce the PP cost though. I think that would be a bad precedent for all the spells that have no parameters to reduce and no RRs needed.

There are some optional rules about casting level (page 39) but not for reducing the casting level (there's an optional rule for raising it though).

[Hurin]

Ah, I think I get it now: the line about modifiers not applying is referring to the RR modifiers for armor, range, and status, rather than the SCR mods (which include list ranks).

My only question would be: is the RR roll affected by casting stat mod? This is normally included in the SCR as well as an RR but I don't see any mention of it in the example of dispelling above.

[jdale]

You would cast the spell as normal. There are no special modifications or changes to the casting roll for it being a Dispel. As normal, that sets the target number for the RR.

It's the RR roll that is not getting most of the usual modifiers for stats, race, armor, etc, since a spell doesn't have those things.

[Hurin]

Ah, that clarifies it then. Thanks.

That makes it a bit easier to dispell a spell than to land a spell on a living target, but I'm ok with that.