Topic: Thoughts on levelless RMU

[katastrophe]

What we focused on were decoupling levels from mainly Spell casting and manner of Resistance rolls.

Actually, considering how DP-based RM is, it's not really hard. A caster level in a given spell could merely be the level at which he masters the list in which the spell is, and you may just give a DP-cost to the RR level: a magical, a disease and a poison RR level should suffice.

I don’t know that we are saying different things.

We came up with a system for spell casting that was a combination of skill, stat and level of spell - ignoring character level from the equation.

Resistance to spells, poison, etc were decoupled from levels altogether and was based on stats, race bonus etc. it does take some management though because level is really ingrained in the system.

Nonetheless, I’ve never understood nor agreed with level based resistance. Never made sense to me why Joe Fighter was more resistant to spells, poison etc  because he was 15th level.

This was a carry over (I believe) from the conceit in DnD and unfortunately stayed around in games regardless of whether it made sense.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I don’t know that we are saying different things.

I don't get this sentence… Do you mean that you think we're not talking about the same thing? I think we do. You said you created a levelless-system and got into some issues…

We came up with a system for spell casting that was a combination of skill, stat and level of spell - ignoring character level from the equation.

Resistance to spells, poison, etc were decoupled from levels altogether and was based on stats, race bonus etc. it does take some management though because level is really ingrained in the system.

There. As I said, though, the thing is that RMU is pretty much already levelless, and more rank-based. Skill proficiency is based on the number of ranks one has in said skill, not one's level. Similarly, ultimately, spellcasting is based on the number of ranks one has in the spell list in which the spell is, more than the spellcaster's level: just exchange the spellcaster's level with his list's number of ranks and you get it. What's left is the RRs' levels. What I said is what a GM has to do is merely give a rank cost to RRs and that's it. A character could simply buy RR ranks, and resist spell, disease or poison based on the appropriate number of ranks.
That being said, and I've been saying it for years, since RM2, the system provided rules to manage poisons without consideration for the character's level, the luck-based RR and the CON-based RR, and this may easily apply to disease as well, meaning a character may only have to actually develop ranks for some RR against magic.

[Hurin]

I don’t know that we are saying different things.

I don't get this sentence… Do you mean that you think we're not talking about the same thing? I think we do.

I think he means you might actually be saying the same or similar things. He's not sure that what you're saying is different from what he is saying.

[pastaav]

I been thinking a bit on the resistance roll aspect of levelless RM. To base the RR level on number of ranks is the obvious solution, like body development and exhaustion are linked. Having more skills that everyone must buy is on the other hand not nice.

Has anyone tried to run a game where the number of ranks determine the RR, but it is up to the player to motivate what skill they use to defend?

[Hurin]

There was the suggestion in beta that RRs are based on number of ranks. One of the suggestions was:

--Essence RR is based on ranks in Power Projection skill
--Channeling RR is based on ranks in Channeling skill
--Mentalism RR is based on ranks in Mental Focus skill
--Physical RR based on Body Dev

And then of course Fear RR is based on Leadership (which is actually RAW)

[rdanhenry]

If you don't want level to be a factor, just remove it. There's no need to substitute ranks in anything, as removing level from both sides of the equation is itself balanced, though it evens things up between low and high level characters. If you don't want that evening, it is better to just use levels (other than pacing development, that's pretty much all levels do). Trying to introduce RR skills that are neither "must take" (in which case, why add the complexity when it's already folded into level advancement?) or not worth it except in edge cases is not that easy. The approach suggested by Hurin is obviously pretty broken. Mental Focus is already a useful skill that is generally nice to have. Power Projection and Channeling are of marginal utility. The skills are also going to have different costs for different professions, altering the balance between Realms (probably to the disadvantage of Mentalism users once one takes into account how much better the skill that resists them is).

[Wolfwood]

How about having the RR rolls simply be based on the Stats (or stat bonuses) that the characters have - In vs Channeling, PR vs Mentalism etc.? Not sure how the new RMU differs from the old ones in this regard, but I'm sure there must be a way to use the Stats directly in this way.

[Hurin]

How about having the RR rolls simply be based on the Stats (or stat bonuses) that the characters have - In vs Channeling, PR vs Mentalism etc.? Not sure how the new RMU differs from the old ones in this regard, but I'm sure there must be a way to use the Stats directly in this way.

That is already the case. I think we are talking about bonuses on top of that, since spellcasters can keep increasing their bonus to the SCR (and thus the RR/attack roll) by gaining ranks in the spell list, but defenders can't.

I wouldn't say the approach I lay out above is 'broken'. It was one way to allow targets to develop a skill that helps them resist spells. Again, casters can keep increasing the number the defender needs to roll to RR because casters can keep gaining ranks in the list. But targets have no way of improving their resistance other than set bonuses for armor or items (and casters can get items too). Once you reach the higher levels, therefore, the bonuses available to resisters pale in comparison to the bonuses the attackers get.

On the other hand, Rdan makes a fair point about the particular skills I mention being unevenly distributed. I would note further that they also generally favour casters, since they are cheaper for casters overall. Another suggestion to get around that would be to allow ranks in the Fortitude skill to be used for RRs, since that's a skill that Arms users tend to be better in.

[B Hanson]

I can't speak for RMU, although much of our changes were instigated during the RMU process:

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/further-deconstruction-of-resistance-rolls-saving-throws/

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/random-musings-resistance-rolls-rolemaster/

With that said, we've had great success treating "physical attack" RRs based on stats.

On the other side, Rolemaster in all it's forms, is condusive to tinkering and houseruling to a degree that other systems aren't. Isn't that the predominance of posts here?

[pastaav]

There was the suggestion in beta that RRs are based on number of ranks. One of the suggestions was:

--Essence RR is based on ranks in Power Projection skill
--Channeling RR is based on ranks in Channeling skill
--Mentalism RR is based on ranks in Mental Focus skill
--Physical RR based on Body Dev

And then of course Fear RR is based on Leadership (which is actually RAW)

The problem with the idea in the beta was that having Essence RR be based on Power Projection means a lot of characters need this skill just for the RR aspect. The skill does not make sense for most characters.

The new idea I had is that any skill can provide resistance provided the player can present a good argument for why the skill is suiting.

A few examples of what I imagine...semispell user X prefer to use power point development when he tries to resist magic. Elven fighter Y prefer to use his meditation skill to defend against mental attacks. Scholar Z is very religous and prefer to use his Religion skill when defending against Channeling magic.

Spell users will get resisting spells for free, but the rest can also get a two times in defense if they plan their character well. Using RR as level 1 for everyone is a possitbility, but that it is equal easy to land a spell on the sect leader and his goons might not be desired.

[MisterK]

Spell users will get resisting spells for free, but the rest can also get a two times in defense if they plan their character well. Using RR as level 1 for everyone is a possitbility, but that it is equal easy to land a spell on the sect leader and his goons might not be desired.

Actually, you might want to do something here - still use levels for resistance, but do not assign resistance levels according to "experience", but according to scenaristic importance. So your goons will be level 1, but your cult leader will be level 10 - but only for resistance purposes. Skills, and skill development, is not correlated with level anymore.
You can even use different "levels" with that - a leader might have a high resistance vs mental magic, but a normal resistance to physical aspects (physical magic, poisons, and the like). A spy and assassin might have a moderate resistance to mental magic and a high resistance to toxins.

But when you get to this (resistance uncorrelated with experience, but correlated with role), you can remove level and assign a resistance modifier instead. Which allows you to keep the casting bonus - characters will be able to overcome resistance more easily with spell proficiency, but this resistance will still vary from individual to individual according to something that is more ingrained in "the way the world works" (scenaristic importance) than in practical and measurable values.

You still have to know what to do with spells that allow to detect a target's level, though. Does it measure field experience (DPs), or does it measure that "relative importance in the world" thing that can be thought as Destiny ?

And if you assign resistance capability to Destiny, you are just one jump away from allowing characters and NPCs to trade it for actual survival - escape certain death ? Spend destiny. The villain escapes certain death, but they use up something vital and, from then on, are closer to their demise (and so their Destiny has unraveled a bit and their resistance to aggression is lessened).

Probably does not work for all settings, but has a certain appeal for those where fate, or soul, is a significant parameter.

[Hurin]

There was the suggestion in beta that RRs are based on number of ranks. One of the suggestions was:

--Essence RR is based on ranks in Power Projection skill
--Channeling RR is based on ranks in Channeling skill
--Mentalism RR is based on ranks in Mental Focus skill
--Physical RR based on Body Dev

And then of course Fear RR is based on Leadership (which is actually RAW)

The problem with the idea in the beta was that having Essence RR be based on Power Projection means a lot of characters need this skill just for the RR aspect. The skill does not make sense for most characters.

That's a feature, not a bug.

If you allow characters to use any old skill they can try to justify, they'll use ones they are very good at, and have already bought. This kind of defeats the purpose. The skill used to resist should be something that doesn't already have a common use. That will allow the system to help balance all the skills by giving value to VERY underused skills (I've literally never had a player spend points in Channeling or Power Projection). But more importantly, it also means that building up a skill to defend against spells comes at a cost. If it were essentially free, then the balance of the game tips a bit too far towards resister rather than caster.

If you're not worried about resisting becoming a bit too easy, then yes, I think you can do what you say. Personally, I'm leaning towards making it a specialization of Fortitude (so it costs additional DP to build it up) or Channeling/Mental Focus/Power Projection.

[EltonJ]

On the other side, Rolemaster in all it's forms, is condusive to tinkering and houseruling to a degree that other systems aren't. Isn't that the predominance of posts here?

Most of the RM2 companions were house rules.    The RMSS/RMFRP companions included optional rules.

[pastaav]

The problem with the idea in the beta was that having Essence RR be based on Power Projection means a lot of characters need this skill just for the RR aspect. The skill does not make sense for most characters.

That's a feature, not a bug.

If you allow characters to use any old skill they can try to justify, they'll use ones they are very good at, and have already bought. This kind of defeats the purpose. The skill used to resist should be something that doesn't already have a common use. That will allow the system to help balance all the skills by giving value to VERY underused skills (I've literally never had a player spend points in Channeling or Power Projection). But more importantly, it also means that building up a skill to defend against spells comes at a cost. If it were essentially free, then the balance of the game tips a bit too far towards resister rather than caster.

If you're not worried about resisting becoming a bit too easy, then yes, I think you can do what you say. Personally, I'm leaning towards making it a specialization of Fortitude (so it costs additional DP to build it up) or Channeling/Mental Focus/Power Projection.

There are reasons why most characters might want to have Channeling and Mental Focus, while power projection is hard to fit into most character concepts (even including spell users). Having rules that make the essence realm more powerful is possible, but it might not be suiting for most campaings.

Even more important I don't really understand your objection. Level based RR comes for free by the core rules so to require that you have some suiting skill to base the RR on in fact raising the requirement to get a RR bonus for characters that ignore magic. I think my idea fits well with the topic of the discussion being levelless RMU.

[Hurin]

Even more important I don't really understand your objection. Level based RR comes for free by the core rules so to require that you have some suiting skill to base the RR on in fact raising the requirement to get a RR bonus for characters that ignore magic. I think my idea fits well with the topic of the discussion being levelless RMU.

Level based RR is core, as you say, and both sides (caster and resister) get a level based bonus. But the caster actually gets a second bonus that increases with level so long as the caster spends points in the skill: the ranks in the spell list. At low levels, this doesn't cause much disparity because resisters get set armor bonuses and a realm bonus that makes the playing field relatively equal. Once you start getting to the higher levels, though, that disparity can get quite large.

So, that is one thing I think that needs to be taken into consideration, and why I like to offer to all characters a skill that allows them to keep pace with the casters so long as they also spend points in it. This is especially something to consider if you are removing the core level bonuses themselves.

That's my 2 cents at least.

[EltonJ]

Level-less Rolemaster has been talked about for the past 30 years. 

[pastaav]

...why I like to offer to all characters a skill that allows them to keep pace with the casters so long as they also spend points in it. This is especially something to consider if you are removing the core level bonuses themselves.

The question if there should be a skill to boost resistance against magic seems like a different topic than levelless RMU, but probably no use to split the discussion inte a separate thread.

Anyway, I must say that in my book, a fighter who needs to devote 9+12+9+12+5+7= 45 DP each level to get resistance, will probably not agree that he has been giveb a meaningful chance to spend the points.

If the scheme with a skill boost resistance should work for arms users the resistance building skill must not be from a magical category or the cost will be too high for arms users. Having mental focus as single resistance skill for all realms could be one alternative that might work.

[Hurin]

Well that's why I suggested making the skill a specialization of Fortitude, since Arms Users get that cheap.

[nash]

So for a campaign I ran years ago we tried level-less.  Rules were fairly simple: The GM (/me) handed out DP instead of XP/EP each session/or whenever.   DP could be spent whenever characters had an appropriate rest or whatever (we are generally pretty lax on that).   Each skill could be developed at the usual costs - first rank at cheaper cost, second at second cost etc.   We did it after first - so technically characters were getting DP early.
 
Every X DP (I can't recall how many DP we used at the time) was a "new level" reseting costs back to usual and moving the character up for spell casting and the like. 

Players... didn't really care for it - was good for reactionary skills / learning; but the bookkeeping was a major pain.  May be easier with software these days.

Eventually the system we settled on was what is now called milestone levelling (we called it "level when the GM feels like it" system), because we also hated calculating XP, and I hated to calculating XP to give them.   The one thing we always did was allow players to prebuy a few ranks of stuff for the next level if story appropriate.  Generally new or rarely used skills that got a sudden boost (players get some lessons on sailing, one takes first 2 ranks in Sailing, or a crash course in herbs - a rank in herb lore).

[Wolfwood]

Level based RR is core, as you say, and both sides (caster and resister) get a level based bonus. But the caster actually gets a second bonus that increases with level so long as the caster spends points in the skill: the ranks in the spell list.

So the simplest solution would be to get rid of that second bonus and simply attack and resist with Stat-based bonuses. Casters would still often have the advantage, as they usually have better stats in their magic realm Stats, but not necessarily.