Topic: Thoughts on levelless RMU

[Thot]

Levelling is a staple of many fanatsy RPG's such as RoleMaster. I also use it with great enjoyment in my current campaign.

But for some campaigns, that may not be the best solution to the matter of experience. Many RPG systems do away with levels entirely, and it works for them. So, if you wanted to houserule RMU into a levelless system, how would you do it? I personally, having thought about this a bit too much, have come to te following conclusion, maybe fitting most for campaigns with a certain horror feel about them:

For levelless RMU, just treat everyone as Level 1, and hand out additional DP's per session (or per time period in the case of NPC's). The learning costs become rather simplified: Only the very first rank in a skill is learned at the lower cost, and all further ranks are learned at the higher cost.

Resistance rolls are treated normally: Characters will be level 1, but poisons, spells and diseases will be of their regular level.

Casting spells "higher than your level" should be treated as normal (with the caster's level always being 1). Thus, magic is inherently unstable and dangerous, and learning a spell list to level 50 will usualily not done for the higher level spells, but for that additional bonus to the spell casting roll.

Under such a levelless setup, campaigns will be more deadly and more cruel, but this can be fitting for some campaigns.

An alternative that is maybe a bit more forgiving would treat all resistance rolls as level 1 on both sides, and would do away with the whole notion of overcasting. This would basically remove levels from the game, and make all dangers based on other stats alone.

One caveat for such a levelless setup would be that it might lead to highly specialized characters... wizards good at two or three spell lists to level 50 even relatively early in the campaign., for example. These are usual outcomes in levelless RPG'sd, and while that may work in some campaigns, it can quickly go on everybody's nerves in another. So handle with care.

[pastaav]

I hand out DP after each session that can be spent according to normal rules. When enough DP has been assmebled you advance a level by raising stats, update RR and reset the costs for buying skills.

If you want to further reduce the impact of level in the game you can tie things to the number of ranks, but I don't see the need. 

[Jon Joe]

I agree with Pastaav.

Using the optional rule "DP as XP" reduces the feeling that levels are milestones.

It´s not levelless per se, but it feels alike, a bit.

[MisterK]

I would do it along those lines :
- provide DPs per time period, with skill costs according to the profession but also according to how the character spent their time during the elapsed period. I would likely provide DPs per fairly short periods and allow players to accumulate DPs in skills that have a high cost.
- resistances are bundled into relevant active skills (so, for instance, the Toughness skill is use to resist Diseases).
- characters get access to spell lists by actually getting trained, or reading, about them (so basically, you know a list as soon as you have one rank in it). Each list is a separate skill, and the spell level provides a modifier to the skill roll. Thus, there is no "overcast" special rule because you can always try to cast a spell - but if your skill is too low, all you'll manage to do is to fry your own brain (and maybe other brains in a 5' radius in case of dismal failure). In this scheme, ritual magic is merely spellcasting with a very long preparation time (and props), and extending prep time to cover rituals would likely be the end result (using a geometric scale, for instance).
- stat gain would be covered by DP spending as well.

That's all off the top of my head, of course.

[Malim]

Many things in RMU looks like GURPS that is an levelless system.
So take a look at GURPS and get some ideas from that, a great RPS

[jdale]

>The learning costs become rather simplified: Only the very first rank in a skill is learned at the lower cost, and all further ranks are learned at the higher cost.

That has an effect that the first rank of everything is easy and advancement is hard. It will result in lower skill totals for characters with the same number of DP as RAW. That could be ok, but it will complicate picking appropriate powered foes. You could reset that second rank cost at some interval (every 60 DP makes it work pretty much as RAW, but could also be some time interval, after a new "significant" use of the skill, etc).

>- provide DPs per time period, with skill costs according to the profession but also according to how the character spent their time during the elapsed period. I would likely provide DPs per fairly short periods and allow players to accumulate DPs in skills that have a high cost.

That creates a player incentive to have more downtime and put off action of any kind. I think it would be ok if you as GM are setting the pace of events, but less well in a sandbox environment where the PCs set the pace.

[MisterK]

>- provide DPs per time period, with skill costs according to the profession but also according to how the character spent their time during the elapsed period. I would likely provide DPs per fairly short periods and allow players to accumulate DPs in skills that have a high cost.

That creates a player incentive to have more downtime and put off action of any kind. I think it would be ok if you as GM are setting the pace of events, but less well in a sandbox environment where the PCs set the pace.

True, but even in a sandbox, even if PCs do nothing, events have a way to push them to do something

At least in my book, sandbox does not mean that the world only moves if the PCs do something. It means that PCs are free to ignore what happens around them and do whatever they want - and suffer the consequences.

Incidentally, time-driven development was used in a number of fairly old-school games, with various moderating mechanisms. One I especially liked, but which might be fairly difficult to translate, was the Bushido system of Zanshin. But other d100-based classless/level-less systems had a built-in learning mechanism that allowed you to increase skills as long as you had downtime and money. The underlying assumption being, obviously, that everyone wanted to have a powerful character but no one wanted to play slices of life, and, as such, the GM set the pace of "adventures" and downtime occurred in-between adventures. But even in a more free-form setting, the system can work if world events conspire to make the characters' lives interesting.

My basic assumption is that players want to play interesting things. The corollary is that people who abuse the learning system tend to have a short shelf life with me. Fun > Balance > Realism also applies to player behaviour.

A possible incentive (which was the underlying incentive of all BRP derivatives, I believe) is to have direct field experience more specific (you only increase skills you actually use) than downtime training, but more efficient from a time (and money) perspective. Add to that that finding learning sources become increasingly more difficult as your skill increases, couple that with world unrest, and I don't think there is anything to fear.

[pastaav]

One of the most fun sessions I ever had happened when the players ignored the quest and were doing pranks on each other and doing "downtime" acticities. To freeze level advancement after a really good session did not feel reasoable so we changed the rule so I handed out DP for hours of play with extra bonuses if the player achieved something special. It is not suiting for every campaign, but it had the big plus that the players could act out the characters without having to worry about not gaining experience.

[Wolfwood]

You could reset that second rank cost at some interval (every 60 DP makes it work pretty much as RAW, but could also be some time interval, after a new "significant" use of the skill, etc).

This might be used in a method similar to BRP/RQ: when the character uses the skill in a critical situation or otherwise significantly, they are awarded an experience mark by that skill. In BRP/RQ, this allows you to roll for advancement at a suitable time, but in RM it would, as you say, reset the rank cost for the next advancement. This would also motivate the players to use their character's skills with more variety.

[pastaav]

You could reset that second rank cost at some interval (every 60 DP makes it work pretty much as RAW, but could also be some time interval, after a new "significant" use of the skill, etc).

This might be used in a method similar to BRP/RQ: when the character uses the skill in a critical situation or otherwise significantly, they are awarded an experience mark by that skill. In BRP/RQ, this allows you to roll for advancement at a suitable time, but in RM it would, as you say, reset the rank cost for the next advancement. This would also motivate the players to use their character's skills with more variety.

I think the significant-use-of-skill reset might work for secondary skills when you have to work to find occasions to use the skill. For skills that give you OB I don't see the motivation to wait for lowering of the cost before you buy te rank since the benefit of a high OB/strong spell is too good to ignore.

Like Thot noted in the initial post unlimited purchase of ranks will mean characters will have strong initiative to focus all their effort to their primary spell or primary weapon. Resetting the cost for secondary skills after use can make those skills more attractive, but I think the cost for the second rank need to be massive if players should consider to not dump all their DP into their main attack.

[Wolfwood]

Resetting the cost for secondary skills after use can make those skills more attractive, but I think the cost for the second rank need to be massive if players should consider to not dump all their DP into their main attack.

I see your point. But, alternatively, the GM could re-educate the players by offering adventures with little or no violence. How high is your Charm? Climb? Persuade? Lock picking? Etiquette? Riding? Swimming? etc. etc.

[Hurin]

If it helps, I think Brian Hanson and others on the RMBlog did talk a fair bit about levelless RM, including RMU.

E.g.: https://www.rolemasterblog.com/no-profession-level-less-house-rules/

[B Hanson]

If it helps, I think Brian Hanson and others on the RMBlog did talk a fair bit about levelless RM, including RMU.

E.g.: https://www.rolemasterblog.com/no-profession-level-less-house-rules/

there are a bunch of blog posts on this. I had a short one here, but a quick search should find more. good comments from readers as well IIRC

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/a-few-quick-thoughts-on-level-less-rolemaster/

[Thot]

[...]  You could reset that second rank cost at some interval (every 60 DP makes it work pretty much as RAW, but could also be some time interval, after a new "significant" use of the skill, etc).

That's an interesting approach, but I am a bit wary about the additional bookkeeping involved here. The player then has to track for every skill whether it has been reset, and whether he has bought 1 rank since the last reset, or 2. A solution for "first rank/second rank" is a bit simpler there.

But one could of course also increase the number of ranks you can buy at the first cost, like "the first 5 ranks you buy in a skill is the first cost, all beyond that the second cost". 5 is just an example number here, I am not sure what a good number would actually be if one wanted to do this.

[thrud]

1. Reward individual DP for skills used successfully. 1 DP first time /daily. +1 DP each open ended high roll.
2. Reward general bonus DP after each session.
3. Reset skill costs every 60 DP.
4  cap maximum number of total ranks to level x 2.

[Wolfwood]

That's an interesting approach, but I am a bit wary about the additional bookkeeping involved here. The player then has to track for every skill whether it has been reset, and whether he has bought 1 rank since the last reset, or 2. A solution for "first rank/second rank" is a bit simpler there.

It works well in BRP, RQ, Cthulhu etc. Players merely put a check mark by the skill when the GM tells them to.

[Thot]

That's an interesting approach, but I am a bit wary about the additional bookkeeping involved here. The player then has to track for every skill whether it has been reset, and whether he has bought 1 rank since the last reset, or 2. A solution for "first rank/second rank" is a bit simpler there.

It works well in BRP, RQ, Cthulhu etc. Players merely put a check mark by the skill when the GM tells them to.

Yes, but in BRP, you either have a cross or not. You'd have to do two crosses, and while that sounds simple, in practice people will easily loose track, I predict.

[Wolfwood]

I think one mark would be enough? Whenever the GM thinks you have used the skill in a dramatic situation or something like that, they would tell you to mark the skill. Then you, as a player, know that the next time you develop it, you can use the lower cost for the first rank (and remove the mark). If you already have a mark on the skill, you cannot earn additional ones.

[katastrophe]

We’ve given thought to levelless variants of RM. we’ve always decided to keep levels as a framework for XP and DP. Partial DP awards and such is just too much bookkeeping in a game that already requires a lot of bookkeeping.

What we focused on were decoupling levels from mainly Spell casting and manner of Resistance rolls.

Those are the two places level is most tied to the rules.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

What we focused on were decoupling levels from mainly Spell casting and manner of Resistance rolls.

Actually, considering how DP-based RM is, it's not really hard. A caster level in a given spell could merely be the level at which he masters the list in which the spell is, and you may just give a DP-cost to the RR level: a magical, a disease and a poison RR level should suffice.