Topic: Magical items: Using the RoP approach

[Thot]

Like many of you, I have watched the Rings of Power season finale (twice, actually), and a thought came to my mind from it which I'd like to share:

In the show, the three Elven rings are created out of extremely rare materials, but the actual creation process takes mere weeks, if that long.

In RoleMaster, however, creating items that powerful requires mostly time, and while magical materials may also be needed, they're usually if not easy, then at least rather simple to acquire.

Comparing these two approaches to make the resulting magical items special, I must say the latter approach is much more adventure-friendly, much better suited to RPG's. It requires quests to acquire those special items, the actual enchantment process can be done by player characters (if they are educated accordingly), and the amount of items in the game world is much better controlled simply by controlling the availability of those special components.

Consequently, I now ponder how one would modify the various RoleMaster Treasure Companions magical items creation methods to fit this. Remove the time (or boil it down to the raw materials working phase), then assign every type of item a special substance required for their creation? Or how would you do it?

[Cory Magel]

I agree with the idea of the materials being rare and using that as an adventure idea. I don't think we've ever just walked up to a creator of items, other than mundane ones, and just 'placed an order'. It's always been a missing or plot hook.

That said, two thoughts:
1. What if the materials are not really that rare?  You could take a fairly ordinary item, enchant it to be unbreakable, then put whatever powers you want in it in no time if you knew the spells.
2. The rules are likely time driven for balance reasons (see #1), but in some games time may mean nothing if the need is not urgent.  So, in the end, I don't think it matters what the book says.  Do what you want.

[Ralfsi]

One idea could be that the more special the material you use you either remove time (TU) by a set amount, or it divides the TU requirements.

Like a eog staff will only be 1/4 of the TU while plain wood will take more time, as it's harder to get the magic to stick (no pun intended)

[Thot]

[...] I don't think we've ever just walked up to a creator of items, other than mundane ones, and just 'placed an order'. It's always been a missing or plot hook.

I tend to design game worlds with some rudimentary economics in mind. Thus while PC's might not just go to an alchemist and order items, everybody else who can afford it might. And such people might have done so for thousands of years. Consequently, in the usual "time-balanced" approach, if your world has had magic for a certain while, logically it will have lots of boring magical laborers who spend their lives making magical items, with the result of having lots of them in the game world no matter how long it takes to boringly make them.

[...] What if the materials are not really that rare?

If you do want magical items to be rare, why would you as the GM set it up so that such items or materials are not rare?

Compare it with RoP: They needed a new, magical material (mithril) AND expensive though mundane material of mundane origin (gold and silver from Valinor), of which very little existed in the game world. This act of creation cannot be easily repeated, because the components are just exceptionally hard to come by. And even if that's at some point in the future no longer true for one component, like mithril, the other requirements still limit the ability to re-create the Elven rings.

[MisterK]

My main problem with time being the great balance provider is that it basically shelves the alchemist classes for campaigns in continuous time (no "scenarios" with time off between them, only continuous action). Most of their base lists provide no benefit whatsoever since they don't have the time to use them.

I am of a mind to remove all the alchemy lists and use them only for power level equivalence purposes - enchanting items become a ritual activity, with various props required - including materials, time, special locations, assistance of an extraplanar being, special sacrifice, and so on, and those props must be researched for unique items (or the formula can be traded for).

The balance then comes from the props required, which might include time or not. In addition, since there are no alchemy spell lists, alchemists are not mages with less-than-optimal base lists, they are mages who have spent most of their time researching formulae for alchemical rituals, building their forges in special locations, studied diagrams, gathered components, rather than spending their days casting the same sequence of spells every day.

[Thot]

One idea could be that the more special the material you use you either remove time (TU) by a set amount, or it divides the TU requirements.

Like a eog staff will only be 1/4 of the TU while plain wood will take more time, as it's harder to get the magic to stick (no pun intended)

That would just add an option. I was more thinking of entirely replacing the time component with an absolutely necessary material component.

For example, "in order to create a +5 magical sword, you need meteoric iron to add to the alloy the sword is made of, but the time to create it is no different from that for creating any other sword, provided you know the required spells".  If you have no meteoric iron, you will not be able to create a +5 magical sword, full stop.

One could make a list of materials required for each type of item (bonuses requiring an ever-increasing list of ingredients for every +5 of bonus, like meteoric iron for a +5, then add another material for increasing that to +10, then yet another for +15, etc., or "a magic point multiplier x2 for channeling magic can only be made out of the portion of a dragon's skull that is right between its eyes, and for a magic point multiplier x3 you need to add a rare ruby from the holy mountain Sardarac  in the center of the magical island of Ronemun".

[Cory Magel]

If you do want magical items to be rare, why would you as the GM set it up so that such items or materials are not rare?

Are trees rare in your world? Magical staff?
Again: You could take a fairly ordinary item, enchant it to be unbreakable, then put whatever powers you want in it in no time if you knew the spells.

[Thot]

If you do want magical items to be rare, why would you as the GM set it up so that such items or materials are not rare?

Are trees rare in your world? Magical staff?
Again: You could take a fairly ordinary item, enchant it to be unbreakable, then put whatever powers you want in it in no time if you knew the spells.

I think you are misunderstanding my intention. The idea here would be to make it against the rules (that is, impossible to do within the magic system) to use a regular tree's wood to create a magical item. Instead, you'd need a special, very rare type of material (like the wood of Yggdrasil). The rarity of that material could be totally in control of the world builder, obviously, so you'd end up with the rarity for magical items that the world builder settles for. There is now actually MORE control over how many of those magical items there will be, and on top of that, getting magical items turns from a business transaction plus waiting period into a quest.

[pastaav]

The main problem with time to try to balance Alchemy is that basic statistics will tell you that it is impossible to make advanced magic items since the Alchemist will fumble eventually if too much time (aka dice rolls) is needed.   

[jdale]

The main problem with time to try to balance Alchemy is that basic statistics will tell you that it is impossible to make advanced magic items since the Alchemist will fumble eventually if too much time (aka dice rolls) is needed.   

Only if they have to roll every day. Has that ever been the case in any version of the rules?

[jdale]

RMU reduces the enchantment time for superior materials. There's no reason you couldn't extend that principle even farther.

Alternatively, maybe you just need to accumulate Time. Is it a resource that can be mined or collected? Perhaps it can be extracted from people, after all the average person has decades of Time that they would otherwise just use on mundane activities for 50-100 years. Clearly an alchemist could use that Time more effectively if it could just be collected and bottled.

[rdanhenry]

Meanwhile, in Tolkien, the Elves took about 90 years to forge the Rings of Power, and that was with a whole team of master Alchemists.
Under the rules in the beta edition of Treasure Law, multiple Alchemists can speed production:
"Distributing Time Costs
If multiple Alchemists work on an item, the time required may be kept the same, while each casts some of
the spells required. If, however, all the required Alchemical spells can be cast by each of two (or more)
Alchemists, then the time requirement may be shared between them. (E.g., if two Alchemists work
together, each casting all of the needed spells each day, they can halve the TU requirement. Material costs
remain unchanged, so this will not lower the price. When enchantment rate is doubled, so does
consumption of materials. If the work is a commission, there may be a premium charged for a rush order.)
Embedded spells need only be cast once per day, not doubled, though this does not affect the time
requirements."

[Thot]

Meanwhile, in Tolkien, the Elves took about 90 years to forge the Rings of Power, and that was with a whole team of master Alchemists.

Explicitly true in the book universe! Tolkien wanted to emphasize how enormous the task was. For telling a story, that works excellently.

But as I wrote, I ask myself: What works better for our own fantasy worlds? And it seems to me, for now, that quicker, more dramatic creation rules are a better choice for an RPG.

[Thot]

RMU reduces the enchantment time for superior materials. There's no reason you couldn't extend that principle even farther.
[...]

Sounds beautiful! If only RMU was out already... 

[pastaav]

The main problem with time to try to balance Alchemy is that basic statistics will tell you that it is impossible to make advanced magic items since the Alchemist will fumble eventually if too much time (aka dice rolls) is needed.   

Only if they have to roll every day. Has that ever been the case in any version of the rules?

The example mithril hammer in Treasure Companion takes 101 weeks...the rules do say you must cast all of the spells each day. It is more than 2000 spells to cast, and with a 2% chance of spell failure, we are talking about dozens of spell failures before he is done. Most failures will be harmless, but the risk of having bad lucks stacks up as the number of spells increase. I suppose the  GM can decide that this is automatic spell casting and that you, for such, don't have to roll on the spell failure table if it is alchemy, but that is kind of a stretch in my book.

At the end of the day, I think very few GMs have ever run a campaign with active Alchemists in the player group due to the bad design of it taking years to make magic items. I had a player that wanted to play an Alchemist and use the alchemy spells as temporary enchantments on his own gear. Loads of fun...but it also made us look into the economics of the alchemy rules, and things simply did not work when we tried to apply them in a setting. The worst offenders, like "Multiple Doses" is only the tip of the iceberg...

[jdale]

The example mithril hammer in Treasure Companion takes 101 weeks...the rules do say you must cast all of the spells each day. It is more than 2000 spells to cast, and with a 2% chance of spell failure, we are talking about dozens of spell failures before he is done. Most failures will be harmless, but the risk of having bad lucks stacks up as the number of spells increase. I suppose the  GM can decide that this is automatic spell casting and that you, for such, don't have to roll on the spell failure table if it is alchemy, but that is kind of a stretch in my book.

That's RMFRP Treasure Law page 47, making an item with a 50th level enchantment. Automatic spell casting success is RAW for RMSS as long as it's not an attack spell and there are no other penalties. The chance of making a powerful item that requires overcasting is low to none but as long as you don't overcast, success is pretty much assured.

RMU requires a spellcasting roll, but you only make one per spell for the entire enchantment period, not per spell per day. So that could be 2-20 spells but certainly not 2000. Spell failures may delay or modify the item rather than wasting time and effort.

At the end of the day, I think very few GMs have ever run a campaign with active Alchemists in the player group due to the bad design of it taking years to make magic items. I had a player that wanted to play an Alchemist and use the alchemy spells as temporary enchantments on his own gear. Loads of fun...but it also made us look into the economics of the alchemy rules, and things simply did not work when we tried to apply them in a setting. The worst offenders, like "Multiple Doses" is only the tip of the iceberg...

I think it's fair to say the rules are not designed for alchemist PCs in most campaigns. Using time as a limiting factor can work for an economy (although it depends on the amount of money in the system and the number of alchemists and their level distribution too) but it's not so great for adventurers. However it puts a useful limit on how convenient it is for those adventurers to go shopping for items.

For my own game, I have a variety of alchemy spell lists that permit very quick creation of potions/elixirs (minutes), but either you need to expend components (e.g. magical herbs, things harvested from creatures) or you don't recover the PP from making them until they are used. The result is a character with more versatility than a regular caster, but much more dependent on advance planning. That's just potions though, not all items.

[rdanhenry]

I addressed the question of PC Alchemists at the end of the section titled "Role-playing the Alchemist" and it was partially with thought of PC Alchemists who might need to undertake a "quest" with their fellows that I added rules for moth-balling a project so that it doesn't need to be done in one long go.

[Hurin]

Some interesting thoughts here. I like Ralfsi's suggestion/Rdan's Treasure Law rules that reduce the Time Units for superior materials. I agree with those that find the game is somewhat hampered when items take many months or years to make; it does really cut down on players being able to get items crafted.

I think there might be more place in RM for a kind of battlefield engineer class (like the PF2 Alchemist) who makes potions and bombs. One other way of balancing that, besides requiring rare elements, would be to make the bombs/potions unstable and thus they lose effectiveness (or go off!) after 1 hr/level or some other similarly short duration.

In the end, though, I do kind of agree that the relatively long times required to craft alchemical creations does make it quite difficult to play an alchemist-type PC or even for non-alchemist PCs to commission specialty gear (which would be kind of fun).

[pastaav]

That's RMFRP Treasure Law page 47, making an item with a 50th level enchantment. Automatic spell casting success is RAW for RMSS as long as it's not an attack spell and there are no other penalties. The chance of making a powerful item that requires overcasting is low to none but as long as you don't overcast, success is pretty much assured.

Even if you manage to do automatic spell casting there is still a chance for spell failure. As far as I know, there in the RMFRP book is neither a rule text that says that automatic spell casting failure just fails nor is there any rule text that says you in this particular case should roll on the spell failure table like in every other case.

If you look at the spell books like Of Essence and similar they include appendix of how to use the book without the main book...and that text includes the explicit rule that you roll on the spell failure table if a spell casting fails. Given the text in appendix, I find it logical to assume that it is a simple omission in the RMFRP book that does not contain the same text for automatic spell casting. If this really is a rule-by-exception case, that breaks the general pattern the text should IMHO have stated the exception explicitly.

RMU requires a spellcasting roll, but you only make one per spell for the entire enchantment period, not per spell per day. So that could be 2-20 spells but certainly not 2000. Spell failures may delay or modify the item rather than wasting time and effort.

Very good improvement...I hope we will get to see a release of the book in a reasonable time frame.

I hope I did not jinx the process even more by saying this. It is mind-blowing that my kid has gone from getting born to almost being old enough to do roleplaying while RMU has been in development.

I think it's fair to say the rules are not designed for alchemist PCs in most campaigns. Using time as a limiting factor can work for an economy (although it depends on the amount of money in the system and the number of alchemists and their level distribution too) but it's not so great for adventurers. However it puts a useful limit on how convenient it is for those adventurers to go shopping for items.

I would not agree about it being a useful limit. Insane costs of the value of magic items cuts both ways so that if it is too expensive to buy then the economy of the setting breaks when the players want to sell magic items and don't care about getting the "real" value of the magic item that the economy of the setting cannot support.

For my own game, I have a variety of alchemy spell lists that permit very quick creation of potions/elixirs (minutes), but either you need to expend components (e.g. magical herbs, things harvested from creatures) or you don't recover the PP from making them until they are used. The result is a character with more versatility than a regular caster, but much more dependent on advance planning. That's just potions though, not all items.

Plenty of good ideas there. I am of the opinion that it is not really hard to come up with rules that work...you just need to use the rules for player characters, and then it gets obvious what rules that simply don't work at the gaming table. The future looks great with RMU...provided we can stand the wait.

[pastaav]

I addressed the question of PC Alchemists at the end of the section titled "Role-playing the Alchemist" and it was partially with thought of PC Alchemists who might need to undertake a "quest" with their fellows that I added rules for moth-balling a project so that it doesn't need to be done in one long go.

Sounds like a great concept.