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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by pawsplay on Today at 04:04:38 PM »
I'm not sure I understand the point being made. Setting aside whether a small Italian board game company is an indie developer, Legendary Games started with like four people, and I'm just one person plus freelancers. So, pick whatever size operation you think is the best comparison to Iron Crown Enterprises.

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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by pastaav on Today at 03:09:52 AM »
Quote from: MisterK on May 23, 2024, 03:21:13 AM
Quote from: pawsplay on May 23, 2024, 02:35:21 AM
Shall we talk about Fabula Ultima? Gorgeous book. Tiny publisher. Currently an Adamantine seller.
I didn't want to get involved in this discussion about apples and oranges, but I have to second that. Fabula Ultima is a great book, with very nice art and a layout I find quite conducive to reading.
It also happens to be a (personal opinion again, obviously) quite interesting RPG, which I believe is a great part of the appeal. But it's one thing to be great, and another thing to be accessible and make the greatness be obvious. FU, in my opinion, does that : the book art and layout makes it easy to grasp the core of what makes it interesting.

Now compare it with RMU and see where the differences are. It does not explain the full difference in popularity, but it probably does explain part of it.

I must admit that the last RM book I could read without wondering why it took so long to get to the freaking point was probably the original ChL&CL. RM2 suffered from a critical lack of editorial and quality control, and from RMSS onwards, the core of the rules and the design intention were buried in meandering prose. Personal opinion here, but the first commandment should be "get to the point"; the second should be "provide an example"; and the third should be "provide *technical* design information" (instead of an essay on the relative values of historical and literary source material, which can easily be omitted or moved to the appendices).

Layout and artwork is the icing on the cake.

Fabula Ultima won product of the year 2023 on Ennies etc. The art and layout might be part of winning the awards, but it is also interesting for our current discussion to note that it is not awailable as Print on Demand product and according to the comments it was not in print for parts of last year.

Let me also quote from their homepage
Quote
Fabula Ultima has won a Gold for Best Game and a Silver for Product of the Year at the ENNIE Awards.

Well, we’ve told you a thousand times how this story began. The enormous work that went into it. The striving for everything to come out the best it could. The endless research.

Today, we reached a place we never dreamed of reaching. And we can’t help but be grateful!

Grateful to Emanuele for entrusting us with their little creation, thanks to the whole team of wonderful people who worked with us, and thanks to all of you, the amazing NEED GAMES! and Fabula Ultima community.

It sounds very much like this started as a one-man project with no concerns about devoted time to make the product perfect. How much money that was devoted to arts it hard to tell if the guy who did it wanted to make it perfect...but it is worth to note they even have a soundtrack for the game!

If we turn out attention NEED GAMES themselves this is italian company with like 20 employee that seems to have purchased license to everything from Warhammer to Bladerunner. I have not done any real research, but it sounds similar to the german company previously mentioned. You really need to stretch definitions in rediculous ways if you want call this an indie developer.
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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by Cory Magel on May 23, 2024, 11:25:11 PM »
Merkir's question went completely unanswered and mine mostly unanswered. So I guess we still don't know if we're comparing apples to apples or not.

Quote
Nobody works for exposure.
They, mostly, shouldn't, but some people do.
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Shadow World / Re: duranaki chronicles
« Last post by Micael on May 23, 2024, 04:30:53 AM »
I will read it and tell you about as soon I am ready - the reviews were very good on amazon.

Thanks
Micael
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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by MisterK on May 23, 2024, 03:21:13 AM »
Quote from: pawsplay on May 23, 2024, 02:35:21 AM
Shall we talk about Fabula Ultima? Gorgeous book. Tiny publisher. Currently an Adamantine seller.
I didn't want to get involved in this discussion about apples and oranges, but I have to second that. Fabula Ultima is a great book, with very nice art and a layout I find quite conducive to reading.
It also happens to be a (personal opinion again, obviously) quite interesting RPG, which I believe is a great part of the appeal. But it's one thing to be great, and another thing to be accessible and make the greatness be obvious. FU, in my opinion, does that : the book art and layout makes it easy to grasp the core of what makes it interesting.

Now compare it with RMU and see where the differences are. It does not explain the full difference in popularity, but it probably does explain part of it.

I must admit that the last RM book I could read without wondering why it took so long to get to the freaking point was probably the original ChL&CL. RM2 suffered from a critical lack of editorial and quality control, and from RMSS onwards, the core of the rules and the design intention were buried in meandering prose. Personal opinion here, but the first commandment should be "get to the point"; the second should be "provide an example"; and the third should be "provide *technical* design information" (instead of an essay on the relative values of historical and literary source material, which can easily be omitted or moved to the appendices).

Layout and artwork is the icing on the cake.
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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by pawsplay on May 23, 2024, 02:35:21 AM »
Quote from: pastaav on May 23, 2024, 02:01:28 AM
He used stock art so the cost for the art was most likely neglible.

As I said, I use a combination. Do Not Approach has a custom cover and has made hundreds of dollars. The cost for art for Yokai Races was, indeed, basically negligible, and has a very nice profit margin. Conquest of the Universe has a custom cover, and while I still haven't brought it to print yet, the PDF version has made thousands of dollars.

I've also done quite a bit of freelance work. Take a look at Boricubos: The Lost Isles by Legendary Games, which I did some bits for. Or look at the Aethera Campaign setting. Or any of their other books. I don't think there's a Platinum seller in the lot.

Shall we talk about Fabula Ultima? Gorgeous book. Tiny publisher. Currently an Adamantine seller.

That's what other people's books look like.
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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by pawsplay on May 23, 2024, 02:20:52 AM »
Quote from: Cory Magel on May 22, 2024, 08:26:14 PM
Also, your artists...
- Who were they? Friends? People willing to 'work for exposure'? True professionals?
- And what did you pay them?

The writing credits are listed right there. Eric Lofgren and James Denton have done Magic cards. The cover to Before the Empire is stock art; I've hired him for custom pieces in other books before. The cover to Ex Cyclopedia is a piece of stock art by Dean Spencer. I could never hire Patricia again because not long after, she became a big shot and did some concept art for Hollywood. Storn Cook did some internal illustrations for Do Not Approach.

I paid them money. Nobody works for exposure.

Looking back, the Eliminator lost me a little bit of money. But I do own the the rights to the cover image. So I'll probably use that again at some point.
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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by pastaav on May 23, 2024, 02:01:28 AM »
Quote from: Cory Magel on May 22, 2024, 08:26:14 PM
Quote from: Merkir on May 22, 2024, 05:24:04 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on May 22, 2024, 04:16:15 PM
Every single one of these is a profitable publication.

I have to ask, for the 37 page product selling for $2.95 which has sold under 50 copies, how many hours work went into its development and getting it ready for publication?
Also, your artists...
- Who were they? Friends? People willing to 'work for exposure'? True professionals?
- And what did you pay them?

He used stock art so the cost for the art was most likely neglible. Obviously making a profit on below 50 sales suggest he is working basically for free, probably due to motivations I mentioned earlier in the thread. Beats me if there is a point with continuing this part of the discussion.

Interesting observations:
* On Drivethrough the only real interaction from a purchaser for pawsplay's work is somebody that is complaining about the layout/art and wants a print friendly version
* The assertion that "better" layout and stock art gives lots of sales is not backed by the number of sales for pawsplay's work.

At the end of the day we have no clue about how many that prefer a traditional layout that saves ink if you print selected pages and how many that need more D&D style layout if they should consider to purchase a product. I think easy to read and uses little ink is high priority for many, but that better cover would have been a good idea.
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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by Cory Magel on May 22, 2024, 08:26:14 PM »
Quote from: Merkir on May 22, 2024, 05:24:04 PM
Quote from: pawsplay on May 22, 2024, 04:16:15 PM
Quote from: pastaav on May 21, 2024, 04:04:04 AM
Quote from: pawsplay on May 19, 2024, 02:04:06 PM
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/211267/do-not-approach
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/423878/before-the-empire-the-3-0-srd
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/194515/the-eliminator-5e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/207804/Ex-Cyclopedia

There's a few. Nothing fancy, just a mix of custom and stock art.

So one of them made Silver, one Copper and two did not reach Copper. Did you break even on any of them?

Every single one of these is a profitable publication.

I have to ask, for the 37 page product selling for $2.95 which has sold under 50 copies, how many hours work went into its development and getting it ready for publication?
Also, your artists...
- Who were they? Friends? People willing to 'work for exposure'? True professionals?
- And what did you pay them?
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Rolemaster / Re: Rolemaster Unified art: what happened?
« Last post by Merkir on May 22, 2024, 05:24:04 PM »
Quote from: pawsplay on May 22, 2024, 04:16:15 PM
Quote from: pastaav on May 21, 2024, 04:04:04 AM
Quote from: pawsplay on May 19, 2024, 02:04:06 PM
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/211267/do-not-approach
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/423878/before-the-empire-the-3-0-srd
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/194515/the-eliminator-5e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/207804/Ex-Cyclopedia

There's a few. Nothing fancy, just a mix of custom and stock art.

So one of them made Silver, one Copper and two did not reach Copper. Did you break even on any of them?

Every single one of these is a profitable publication.

I have to ask, for the 37 page product selling for $2.95 which has sold under 50 copies, how many hours work went into its development and getting it ready for publication?
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