Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Cernid Win on September 13, 2007, 05:37:41 AM
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My mage did some scouting in Thuringwathost (MERP ICE8020 Dagorlad and the dead Marshes)
while flying and beeing invisible i also did cast shrink so i could get throug smal openings and map the layout for my fellows (at least where i could go without opening doors).
later one of the players pointed out that i was flying around nekkid ;D because the spell would only make the body smaler and not the player himself.
i cant find anything about equipment in the descriptions of the Spell list but if the clothing and amor isnt changed, it would be dumb.
if i transform into a dwarf to get a discount from an dwarfen merchant, he would see that im wearing the same clothing as the elf which was here 20 minutes ago and if someone in an AT20 is enlarging himself he would be serious injured.
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I think the other palyer is right :)
Shrink is just a 1st level spell, you can't expect too much from it! Besides that it states that it makes the target smaller, and I think that this don't include his clothing/possessions!
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"X target(s)" includes all equipment on said target(s), per the "Your aura contains all" rule. (Otherwise you would teleport, and arrive naked on the other side.)
If a spell does not include gear, it will specify, look at "Unseen" for an example.
The only proviso to this is certain items may get a seperate RR. (For instance, a "Shrink" cast on Fodo might not shrink the one ring, at the GMs discretion). Generally speaking, I consider that rule to exist to prevent he casual destruction of plot devices.
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Oh! I forgot of the aura thing! :mullet:
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We normally only worry about those items with a will when a character is changing something such as a shrink. It would be funny however to see the massively powered arch mage teleport and all his items be still sitting where he was.
If I remember correctly, shape changing, not the spells but the actual changing such as background or curse, does not change the clothes and items.
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There are options that can be added if such detail is desired.
The options I am about to list wrap around the idea that all change spells create a bland form that is noticable to the trained eye as "basic shapeshift magic."
The optional skill spell artistry is a good choice for detailing shapeshift magic. A very hard (-20) check will allow the caster to create an original form, but not a copy, that will pass as any race with average appearance. Good or bad looks adds an additional penalty modifier equal to the mod attempted. So in RMFRP, to attain a -10 AP mod (or a devestatinglt attractive orc in the eyes of orcs) would require a -50 Spell artistry check (-20 plus 3x stat mod desired). In RM2, the stat mod would be a straight add.
Likewise, if the GM wishes, altering armor, clothing an items could require skill checks. Changing color only would be a light (+10) mnv, moderate changes to size of objects and physical appearance would be hard (-10, such as a sword to a dagger, a change in outfit, plate to chain or chain to leather or leather to a cloak/jacket, etc), major changes would be very hard, while absorbing the objects into the new form would be extremely hard.
If a GM wishes to limit skills, then use spell mastery instead.
I have to run, or I would add a great deal more. Perhaps later.
lynn
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I have allways played the spells that they do not effect equipment but you can use spell mastery to bring your equipment along with you.
Yamma,
I love the spell art. rules and I will use them.
MDC
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so having my familiar in my aura (like a snake in my pocket) would make the familiar small as well? (i think it should get big as soon as it leaves me).
for the attractive orc: i think one should know more about the specific race or species and maybe even aktual standards in beauty for this stuff
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Would be funny though, getting the hulk effect whenever you use an enlarge spell on a person ... ;)
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It would lead to offensive uses. . . .cast on someone in AT 20, they'd squeeze out the neckhole like toothpaste.
A familiar is somewhat easier, in that you can easily make the call that they are aura bound to the caster, explaining the penalties if they die. . .
There's some considerable gray area there though.
But what about a normal ferret in your pocket? How about the Halfling in the ogre's backpack? How about the inevitable medieval fleas, ticks and lice. . .(Nothing like shrinking down only to be killed shortly thereafter by your body vermin.)
Technically, a strict reading of the rules would be one being, plus all their gear, with RRs for any gear that the GM feels is magical enough to resist, and NOT including any other living beings.
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Yeah, speaking of offensive uses I remember a time when Teleportation spells were allowed to be used offensively before someone finally looked up the rules properly. Teleporting horses under rider a**** away or just teleporting the riders or charging soldiers into space ... dangerous spell that one.
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Of course, given that they don't affect your stats in any way, one might argue that they're more illusionary than actual changes.
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If you shrink, then crawl through the 2" gap under the door, I'd call that real enough for anyone but an existential philosopher.
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anyone remembers "misfits of science" where the big 2m black guy was shrunk and had barbie clothes for this in his pockets?
btw an explanation could be that all spaces between molecules in your aura are getting smaler and the molecules are more together (thus explains the non changing weight, strenght and matter).
getting an extra form is just like more spaces between molecules here and a little bit less there ...
the colours could be illusions or differend light reflections due too the changed matter.
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Great series - don't remember much but that was a nice one. Interesting comparison.
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@munchy
they did run in german paytv (premiere) so i have all of them archived
;D
old people eating radioactive burgers and getting superpowers ;D ;D ;D
i think i have to watch them again.
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Got on the cable TV train VERY late and never had premiere - but I remember it running on RTL in the early Saturday morning way back.
I don't, however, remember radioactive hamburgers.
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btw an explanation could be that all spaces between molecules in your aura are getting smaler and the molecules are more together (thus explains the non changing weight, strenght and matter).
Shrink yourself without loosing weight might cause you to sink even into packed earth.
I'm such a kill-joy. >:(
It would lead to offensive uses. . . .cast on someone in AT 20, they'd squeeze out the neckhole like toothpaste.
This spell exists on a yet to be researched spell list, but it is at a high level
(anyone ever used Fatal Inversion ?) - easier to kill the target with a Firebolt.
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Well, the answer here is probably as usual: "It's magic!" I does not have to follow the rules of physics as we know them.
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I'm an old power gamer, so of course I have used Fatal Inversion...and Call of the Void...and Liquidfy Skeleton (personal favorite there ;) ).
lynn
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In the enlarge case I use the house rule; that if the target encountered resistence when growing the spell stoped the enlargement at that point.
MDC
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Usually the equipment is included, in another case if you enlarge yourself and you wear a ring...you can lose you finger!!.
I think if not described specifically (as 'unseen' spell) it includes the equipment, but we could (or must) use the teleport limit rules, that is about a 150% of caster weight too evade abuses.
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A little question related to this topic:
If something really big (for example a dragon) assumes human form using a spell or item and then wear magical items (like boots, or armor,...), what will happen when the spell is cancelled (or ends duration) or the item removed? Do the magical items "enlarge" to fit the original form? Must they make a RR or be destroyed? I would say the latter one, what do you think?
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Depends. . .if part of the magic of magic clothing like rings is that they "fit to size" then no problem.
Like, the one ring fits 16' tall sauron and 3' tall frodo. (Nasty sauron, small hands, smells like cabbage.)
If not, it's the GM's call if the items RR to make the change or not. . .if there's no in game logic for the clothes re-sizing I'd say they either fall to the floor or get shredded.
(A lot depends on GM special effects for instance. . .one GM had living change act like morphing from one shape to the other, which makes me think torn clothing, split rings and all. . .another GM had the target turn into a glowing cloud then re-form into the new shape. . .that would leave the stuff on the floor unharmed. Either are valid.)
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If you like drama, such items could stay altered, until reunited with the original target, dispelled or the duration of the spell expires.
If for any reason a magic item wont, cant or can resist being altered, an RR would be appropriate, with failure indicating it does change for the duration of the spell. I have often required an RR for artifact powered gear, with the items rr success being described as "it wavers and shimmers...or...you twist the items shape, almost completeing the transformation, but it is to powerful a stain on you, and you cant finish the weave..."
Items like these can be a source of fun, adventures, and considering the power the lend to PC's, suffering some small disadd doesn't strike me as a bad thing.
If you go with the item staying altered when seperated, remember a few things. The spell caster will be able to cancel the spell just by concentrating, causing the altered item to assume normal form. Also, detects should show an active spell, and the right detect what spell (i.e. change to kind, etc).
Perhaps the best bet it to assume that any item more than 100' away from the reciepient of the changing magic reverts to its original form. Also recall changes should be cosmetic; short sword into dagger, bracer into bracelet, etc.
lynn
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hmmm ... this brings the munchkin in me out ...
get stone -> shrink -> place stone in lock -> cancel spell
BANG open door
a good DM would probably just say the stone gets destroyed but its an idea
even better: kill giant bird -> shrink and bespell with levitate to make it as small and as light as a chicken -> serve enemy who cant find poison or anythin in it
BANG rupture in the stomach enemy dies in 3D10 Days with terrible pain
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I certainly think casting "Shrink" on a rock, then getting someone to eat it, then returning it to full size qualifies as "Creatively using a U spell to attack". . .depending on the amount of shrinkage. . .the enlarging turkey may just cause the person to vomit. . .if your stomach contents double in size it's one thing, if the x10 more likely you'd rupture.
Much like you could cast "Boil Liquid" on someone's bath, then push them into it.
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(A lot depends on GM special effects for instance. . .one GM had living change act like morphing from one shape to the other, which makes me think torn clothing, split rings and all. . .another GM had the target turn into a glowing cloud then re-form into the new shape. . .that would leave the stuff on the floor unharmed. Either are valid.)
I like the "morphing" effect, as I find it more dramatic... and give less loot to the PCs! :evil1: (just joking)
Maybe the effect should be different for each magical item, a sort of random effect given by the unpredictable interaction beteween the spell and the item "aura". An item could simply break, another change size normally, another one just fall to the floor unaltered,...
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Or a powerful item could prevent the change.
MDC