Author Topic: How many DP do you give per level?  (Read 14638 times)

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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2015, 03:05:46 PM »
Sorry fo the delay in replying, just been for a run.

It seems a lot of it is supply and demand. In RMSS there seem to be many more skills and as yammahoper says magic is handled so differently. There is a greater demand on your DPs so you are given more. If you are playing RM2 and have all the additional secondary skills than it seems that GMs are giving away either specific skills or a one off parcel of points. In RMC you have less skills so there is less demand for more DPs.

Comparing RMC or even RM2 to RMSS is not an apples to apples comparison.
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Offline Green Manalishi

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2015, 08:18:48 PM »
Sorry, a fighter with an axe and chain and adrenal speed isn't a different build than sword and plate and adrenal strength It's still a weapon and armor = same thing. Those are primary skills. I can make two fighter exactly the same, but instead one uses long sword and another a short sword, and "Look! I have two different and distinct and unique characters" Blah.
DPs in the original rules work great for PRIMARY skills. Secondary skills really flesh out a character as tbigness said





Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2015, 06:46:02 AM »
I've never seen this, either, but that is likely a function of differences between gaming groups.

We did extra DPs for Secondary Skills based on the RM2 suggestion. Since they can only be used on Secondary Skills I don't see it as impacting balance (and since we use secondary skills I think it's only fair that DPs exist for them). It's a small pool for a lot of skills, so bonuses tend to be low as a result. Also, we reworked and weeded skills fairly heavily.

I love that idea.  Can you tell me the Companion/section that rule is in?  I'll definitely check that out.  If there is a delineation between which skill sets points may be sent on, then the balance is maintained. 
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2015, 06:48:52 AM »

  • Spear, Shield and AT20 and lace up sandles.


Darn you!  I read this and laughed and shot milk out my nose!  Something about the image of a huge manly fighter wearing the lace up sandals my 13 yo daughter has struck me as extremely humourous!
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2015, 07:01:02 AM »
Sorry, a fighter with an axe and chain and adrenal speed isn't a different build than sword and plate and adrenal strength It's still a weapon and armor = same thing. Those are primary skills. I can make two fighter exactly the same, but instead one uses long sword and another a short sword, and "Look! I have two different and distinct and unique characters" Blah.
DPs in the original rules work great for PRIMARY skills. Secondary skills really flesh out a character as tbigness said

Actually I totally disagree with you. A character is not just a pile of numbers. The weapon you choose, the armour and the supporting skills help to define the whole style of fighting, how you are perceived. The speed verses strength change makes one fighter fast, nimble and would consider taking on two of my opponents at once. The strength user could be very frighting to engage. If everything else was equal the strength user would have a higher OB and deliver more hits of damage.

When people see plate armour they tend to think knight/tank who is going to be hard to take down, when you see lighter armours the character is often perceived to be a softer target.

That list encompassed a viking berserker, one of Robin Hoods merry men, a knight in the grand melee, a warrior trained in the Phalanx (with sandles), a centurion, gladiator and so on.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2015, 07:10:18 AM »
Sorry, a fighter with an axe and chain and adrenal speed isn't a different build than sword and plate and adrenal strength It's still a weapon and armor = same thing. Those are primary skills. I can make two fighter exactly the same, but instead one uses long sword and another a short sword, and "Look! I have two different and distinct and unique characters" Blah.
DPs in the original rules work great for PRIMARY skills. Secondary skills really flesh out a character as tbigness said

I have to disagree with one point, there is a HUGE difference in a Fighter with Adrenal Speed and one with Adrenal Strength.  THe tactics, number of fighters, amount of "movement" available to each one is very different.  Attack 2 opponents or double damage to 1?  Attack and drop back or bull rush into a wall?  Those are two very different styles of game play with a fighter.

The point that was being made is that there were still more than half the total DP available AFTER purchasing those skills.  All of those skills, save for Maneuver in Armour are #/#, not #/*.  There is a max number per level that can be purchased and that conserves DP for secondary skills.  Keep in mind, Body Dev will also max out at some point and those DP will not be spent on that skill any longer.  As the PC levels up more DP becomes available to round out the PC further.  You cannot be awesome at everything at level one.  That takes at least two levels :D  Seriously, it takes a couple of levels to really start to flesh out a PC.  It was one of the main reasons we ended up starting all of our PCs at level 5.  But we had plenty of sessions where we started at Level 1.  At that level, the Xp bonuses are higher and you level up much faster.  There's bonus XP for 1st time encountering being of type "blah blah blah", and Bonus XP for first time kill, first time delivering high crit, so on.  Leveling up in RM  (RM2 at least) at low levels is pretty quick, and that's just following the simple guideline in ChL&CaL?  I forget which book has that chart.

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PeterR: You may not be able to do everything at first level but that is what leveling up is all about, letting the character evolve naturally as you grow into the game world.

This is exactly what leveling up is for; adding more flavor.  I've always been a fan of and have always encouraged players to use Level 0 (Adolescent level) as the "GM Gift level" or the "freebie level."  I've never seen another game system that allowed players to make a Level 0 PC.  This is free points in my mind.  This is where my friend dumped 20 points into a 5% chance at learning a spell list.  This is where you buy the really neat secondary skills that will give your PC an interesting background.  This is where you buy a rank in Swimming, Grappling, Rappelling, Brawl, Region Lore, etc.  This is where my Cavalier learned Use/Remove Poison, Poison Lore, Poison Perception, Herb Lore, Foraging, Brewing, First Aid, Second Aid.  He was the younger of two brothers and at *that* particular point in his life, he was in the monastery learning the scholarly arts while his big, strong, older, entitled brother (Sir Gowan III the Greater) was training to be a knight and learning all the cool combat arts.... until an unfortunate accident had him killed on a quest and the younger (Sir Gowan IV, The Lesser) was thrust into the knightly arts.  I have a really awesome Cavalier with the high values in the "non-DP producing stats" who does a lot of subterfugey and "keep yourself alive healy" stuff that is entirely uncharacteristic of a Cavalier.  At level 1, while not "exactly" the Fighter Profession we have been using as an example for these past few posts, he is a non-spell user, level 1 and very different from what a Cavalier is "supposed" to be.  The GMs were all surprised my Cavalier had these subterfuge skills.  I had a great back story for him and it fit in perfectly with the Adolescent level usage.

Gods, I miss playing him!  I need someone to GM for me again!!!!!!

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Offline HawksNut

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2015, 09:32:25 AM »
We are playing RMSS and using the rules as written.

Offline Green Manalishi

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2015, 11:50:05 AM »
Hmmm...so it's like (in Seinfeld's Soup Nazi voice) "NO DPs FOR YOU!"

But then, "Oh there's not enough DPs, so start at level 5."


It's a silly notion to think giving extra DPs for secondary skills only means PCs know everything. Ranks are still limited by level. And, there are so many skills in RM2 that it's impossible. Even using only the ChL secondary skills, no PC develops them all, or even close to it.

And differences in using sword/ad strength and whatever/ad speed, it's still just revolves around combat, and again those are still Primary skills. That's a good thought process for characters, but it doesn't stop there. Wanna be a fast fighter with good movement abilities, it doesn't stop at ad speed and light armor. Ok, utilize the faster movement, and now run at a fast sprint, ok add your Sprinting skill, don't have it, then -25. Wanna make a knight? Need more than just one weapon skill, and other skills like riding, animal handling (you were a squire), mounted combat, etiquette, perhaps religious doctrine, reading/writing, and/or other cultural or societal skills. A fighter should know a little more than just fighting, however he chooses to do it.


Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #68 on: May 20, 2015, 12:19:57 PM »
I've never seen this, either, but that is likely a function of differences between gaming groups.

We did extra DPs for Secondary Skills based on the RM2 suggestion. Since they can only be used on Secondary Skills I don't see it as impacting balance (and since we use secondary skills I think it's only fair that DPs exist for them). It's a small pool for a lot of skills, so bonuses tend to be low as a result. Also, we reworked and weeded skills fairly heavily.

I love that idea.  Can you tell me the Companion/section that rule is in?  I'll definitely check that out.  If there is a delineation between which skill sets points may be sent on, then the balance is maintained.

It was in core RM2 if I recall correctly. It also shows up in RMC (p. 74) as Option 11.3, which suggests 25% of normal primary DPs for use with secondary skills only. I've got RMC in pdf close to hand, which is why I cited it, but RM2 had pretty much the same rule.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #69 on: May 20, 2015, 02:09:42 PM »
Hmmm...so it's like (in Seinfeld's Soup Nazi voice) "NO DPs FOR YOU!"

But then, "Oh there's not enough DPs, so start at level 5."


Actually not the reason at all.  The DP availability was never an issue for us. 

With the rate that low level PC leveled up and the lower power of the spell casters, we started our players at level 5 so it took longer to level up and we could make higher powered campaigns with more options and spells/spell lists available for the GMs and players to play around with.  We tried to keep the level of the bad guys/creatures relative to the levels of the PCs who were playing.  Looking at what's available for level 1 creatures vs. level 1 through level 6 creatures.... you have lots more to choose from and the campaigns really got interesting.  There were GMs who wanted to use lesser dragons and some of the rare/stronger elemental creatures, and quite honestly, it wouldn't be fair to throw those high powered creatures at level 1 PCs.

When you play in college, there are limitations to the amount of free time you have, and summer vacation/winter vacation spread us out all over the United States.  We wanted to run some long lasting campaigns and didn't want to waste 2 semesters of game time going through 5 levels to get to the bigger campaigns.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #70 on: May 20, 2015, 02:42:01 PM »
When you play in college, there are limitations to the amount of free time you have, (...)
Wait until you start working. Then, you shall realize that you never had more free time than when you were in college.

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...and summer vacation/winter vacation spread us out all over the United States.
Once your friends and you start working, you shall get spread out all over the whole world for most of the whole year, but mayhap a couple days. A decade.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #71 on: May 20, 2015, 03:29:38 PM »
Wait until you start working. Then, you shall realize that you never had more free time than when you were in college.

 ;D Ah my friend, already done that.  Including married and divorced and 3 kids, one of them now in college herself.  But all three kids love RM2!  (including the ex-wife)


Quote
but mayhap a couple days. A decade.

...or not at all.  I haven't seen some or been able to get in touch with some since they graduated over 20 years ago.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2015, 04:17:16 PM »
We have never had a problem with a lack of DPs and yes we did/do buy secondary skills. I was just pointing out that less DPs do not make cookie cutter identical fighters every time. I was showing that you can easily produce 10 conceptually different fighters using less that half their DPs leaving enough left over for other things.

I start my players off at first level and the current party have been playing for about 30 gaming hours and most have just made third level with one at second.

At about 40DPs per level a third level RM2/RMC character will have spent about 160DPs and is probably as developed as a first level RMSS character.

Are they really so different?

I have played in many games where the GM has chosen to start the party at higher levels to fit with his idea of his game world and the challenges he has lined up for the party. The highest level start I have ever done was starting at 10th level. It was never to do with a lack of DPs. It was more to do with OBs, PPs and availability of spells.

There is certainly more to a knight than weapons and armour I agree but etiquette is more about role playing that dice rolling to use your example.

I spent part of last weekend creating a first level lay healer. The charater is called Otto and spent most of his youth working on barges. I bought the secondary skills of loading because he woild have had to stow cargo, animal handling because the barge was pulled up stream by oxen and penny whistle as they would have made their own emtertainment. I also bought weapon skills, spell lists, medical skills, body dev, perception and so on. The character had 37DPs. He is a viable rounded individual.

There are some skills I would love to have been able to buy but couldn't so I am learning them for second level. In that game we are using all the RM2 skills.

I think the total DPs available makes no difference as the player will spend everything you give them. It is only at the higher extremes that it will impact on the game when players have too many spell lists, PPs and everyone is fully trained in plate at level one. I don't believe anyone here would or has gone to that extreme.
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Offline Tommi

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2015, 05:46:26 PM »
RMSS as written

RM2: DP's were designed for basic char law skill set. I feel that as I use the whole RMC2  skill set PC's need more  --> so DP's from bonuses (RMC 1 chart) times 1,2. Human PC chars have had between 44 and 54 DPs and Elves between 40 and 47. NPCs do not get multipler - PCs are the heroes.

Offline Green Manalishi

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2015, 08:21:31 PM »
RMSS as written

RM2: DP's were designed for basic char law skill set. I feel that as I use the whole RMC2  skill set PC's need more  --> so DP's from bonuses (RMC 1 chart) times 1,2.

Exactly! Those additional DPs in my game are used ONLY for secondary skills, which is what RoCo1 suggests.

Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2015, 02:16:08 AM »
I suppose there are two ways of looking at it. Because there are more skills available does not mean you have to buy them, they just offer more choice or because there are more skills available you want to have more of them. I can understand both positions. As a fighter I would probably want blind fighting, iai strike, reverse strike and all the other combat skills.

The list given earlier of riding, animal handling, mounted combat, etiquette, religious doctrine, reading/writing, and other cultural skills in RMU has been largely rolled up into a single skill called Vocational Skills.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to DPs. It is just what works for your game and players.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2015, 11:53:54 AM »
More dev does mean more skills, and more skills gives players tools to interface with the game world.  Players get creative.

I think an interesting point is romantic over gritty, wich do you prefer?  A single skill such as Observation or Athletics can cover many skills sets, while swimming, sking, tightrope walk and sprinting really defines a more specific skill set, both approaches have strengths and weakness.  One weakness of the romantic is to many dev results in to many skills that all cover a broad set of knowledge.  At fairly low levels, they can do it all.  Better defining skills increases their number and also limits the ability to be strong and dominating in all places.  Chinks in the skill set a PC can cover encourages team play and results in shared limelight time for the players too.

So, lots of dev and lots of skills.  A Paladin may need to invent a fauna lore: mythical monsters while a Mage may need Culture Lore: Elemental Planes (both romantic skills with broad definitions of knowledge).  Culture Lore: Elemental Plane of Fire or Fauna Lore; Poisonous Creatures would be grittier and offer less in play use.  The key is a small mix of romantic skills can help out a game but tomany and we return to the original problem of PC's being overwhelmingly able.
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Offline tbigness

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2015, 12:18:19 PM »
As a GM I like that each character has a few more skills available to help out the game experience. So a few more DP's do not hurt and the additional lores and other secondary skills help out with the game. I use a lot of game skills for PC's so this would work out great for me anyway. I am not a DP depriving GM as others like to be and the players are fine with it. So to each their own.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2015, 12:23:19 PM »
As a GM I like that each character has a few more skills available to help out the game experience. So a few more DP's do not hurt and the additional lores and other secondary skills help out with the game. I use a lot of game skills for PC's so this would work out great for me anyway. I am not a DP depriving GM as others like to be and the players are fine with it. So to each their own.

Each to their own is the key I think.

I don't feel I am a DP depriving GM but then the two other GMs I play with use ALL the RM2 skills and only DPs by the book. I use less skills with the same DPs so to all intents and purposes my players have less to spend those points on so they go a little further.

I think yammahoper makes a good point as to what is the GM asking his players to be.
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Offline arakish

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2015, 11:38:49 PM »
By the book?
A fixed amount?
A fixed multipler (by the book x2 for example)

Something else entirely?

Please specify whether you are talking about 2nd/classic or SS/FRP (I am interested in both)


Initially, for RMC, I gave DPs by the book.  When RM2 expanded the number of skills were expanded with RoCo2-7, we settled on giving DPs by summing all ten stats, then dividing by 10.  This usually averaged, once stats hit Potential, about 85 to 95 DPs.  We were always happy with this since it allowed characters to be more well rounded instead of archtypical professions.

With the new RMUS, on which I am basing a new campaign world, I give DPs according to the below table.  Essentially, you get 50DPs for Adolescence, Apprentice, and Squire levels before becoming 1st level.  Afterwards, you receive +1DP for each level, plus an additional +1DP for each 5th level.

LevelDPsTotal     LevelDPsTotal     LevelDPsTotal     LevelDPsTotal     LevelDPsTotal
15151     657323     1163625     1669957     21751319
252103     758381     1264689     17701027     22761395
353156     859440     1365754     18711098     23771472
454210     960500     1466820     19721170     24781550
556266     1062562     1568888     20741244     25801630

Levels 26+ follow this same pattern.

Bonus DPs

Additionally, the GM may award bonus DPs on each level acquistion.  These bonus DPs are free and in addition to the normal DPs received as detailed above, and may be spent as desired.

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