Topic: Illusion question for RM -- any version

[Marc R]

The RM2 note says to make real objects they must be one the caster has studied, and offers the same option in terms of requiring an artistry check if the GM wants.

[markc]

The RM2 note says to make real objects they must be one the caster has studied, and offers the same option in terms of requiring an artistry check if the GM wants.

 How do you determine what the spell caster has studied? Is studying in a book ok or do they need the real thing?

MDC

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

How do you determine what the spell caster has studied? Is studying in a book ok or do they need the real thing?

The quality of the illusion/phantasm is based on the knowledge/experience of the caster. A caster who has touched a fish will be better at creating the proper feel than one who has only read about it. The same holds true for all other aspects as well.

[Fornitus]

 Our Illusionists learn a Sage Base list that has Study I as 1st or 2nd level. We treat anything not magicaly studied with an artistry roll modified with the casters knowledge vs the observers knowledge and setting.

[Marc R]

That makes a lot of sense. . .for a couple of reasons.

First, as said earlier, a hand is a terribly complex thing, skin, hair, muscle, lots of bones a pulse, dry/sweaty, etc, etc. Hard to imagine a caster knowing a hand well enough to not only dupe it, but dupe the phantasm of a functioning and mobile hand.

Second, some things look totally different to other species. . .like if you can see further to UV than a human, even apparently bland white flowers have patterns and markings. . .which bees can see. . .the markings are there to guide bees in to the center where the flower wants them, the fact humans can't see them is irrelevant. . .details like that would never be included if the illusion of a flower is drawn from a human caster's perception. . .and they'd never know why they could never fool a bee with an illusion of a flower. . .same with ranges of hearing and sensitivity of sense of smell. . . while a magically studied object would be perfectly stored in all detail, even details the caster's not aware of.

[pastaav]

I think the physics angle is overthinking this a bit, I suspect sticking with the rules as is, with perhaps some clarification to resolve issues raised.

Like we already covered I don't agree that you are sticking with the rules as is. No talk about heat is no talk about heat no matter how many times you argue heat is a property of the object.

Do you see some sort of exploit/powergaming method made available to the fact that an illusion could be cool or warm? If so, could you explain?

Any engine with unlimited energy is a bad thing in my book. If the illusion is at a certain temperature no matter what then you can use it do power an engine. Any attempts to prevent this with arguments like it is warm but it does not radiate heat is bound to fail since if you make the spell produce result that are inconsistent with real world physics then you can exploit it without enough physics knowledge...in many cases the abuse would to a worse degree than without the attempted fix.

Lots of fixes are possible...my example of total reflection to mimic the touching person is simple and consistent. Using this you have some simple restrictions on what the feel spell can achieve, and a few cases when you don't need to understand science to achieve the thermal insulation that is possible already.

Alternatively you could state that each feel can heat/chill XX kg of matter by YY degrees without breaking the feel. XX and YY need to be chosen so that the energy is not enough to cause damage. It is trivial to write spell notes that allow heated illusions that are not game breaking...actually that is one of the reasons I am pretty sure they never intended heated illusions. If you think about it...it is easy to see the need for consistency and easy to fix. I don't think any of the authors ever thought about using the temperature of the illusion to deduct it is an illusion.

[Marc R]

Are you saying it offends your sense of what makes sense scientifically, not that there's any actual power exploit put into play?

It's magic, and active, duration limited magic, so I don't see where that's an issue.

In reply, shrug, it's an active spell, and all but the highest level version have durations, so the effects hardly seem unlimited. . . .and if it cannot cause damage, so I can't see what it can do that actually matters in play enough to worry about.

KISS and the logic of perfect deception as specified by the "Real" comments requires temperature to make touch work, you don't deny that disallowing temperature variations would limit the scope of objects that could be perfectly mimicked with a feel mirage, which is a major downcheck of the abilities of the illusions as written. . .if a phantasm (including feel) of a person could be determined as simply as shaking it's hand and noticing it's tepidly room temperature, IMO that would have been directly specified, as it's a major factor, not a minor niggling issue. . . .this isn't one of those "If a race can see radio waves, would it be able to see through illusions?" bizzare / rare situations, it's a casual every casting aspect of feel mirages.

[pastaav]

Are you saying it offends your sense of what makes sense scientifically, not that there's any actual power exploit put into play?

I don't know about your game...but I have problems seeing the difference between these. If you are running a game that is pure dungeon crawl or pure social interaction then the science matter little. I don't run such game...with products like Construct Companion in play the line between actual science and stuff happening in the game is very slim.

Also I can easily see the use of illusions to warm the party if you are in any kind of cold climate...

It's magic, and active, duration limited magic, so I don't see where that's an issue.

Lol...you mean like 1 day/level for Feel Terrain. The illusionist will surely feel limited by casting two spells each month to power the engine...not. The normal feel spell that is 10 minutes/level is also give a quite extensive period of time if you ask me...especially if you start to extend the duration with other spells.

KISS and the logic of perfect deception as specified by the "Real" comments requires temperature to make touch work, you don't deny that disallowing temperature variations would limit the scope of objects that could be perfectly mimicked with a feel mirage, which is a major downcheck of the abilities of the illusions as written. . .if a phantasm (including feel) of a person could be determined as simply as shaking it's hand and noticing it's tepidly room temperature, IMO that would have been directly specified, as it's a major factor, not a minor niggling issue. . . .this isn't one of those "If a race can see radio waves, would it be able to see through illusions?" bizzare / rare situations, it's a casual every casting aspect of feel mirages.

Depends on your view point...I think you extend the usefulness of illusions to areas that is not covered by the spell descriptions, spell notes or the examples and discussions. You say that temperature is an casual aspect of feel mirages while I say light and heat should require extra spells since passive items always adjust to room temperature.

There is no contradiction between the illusion being perfect and it not being able to change the temperature of the environment. Just like there is no contradiction between the visual mirage being perfect and it require extra spells to shine.

Like already concluded it is trivial to house rule the illusions spells so that the illusions spells do get the ability to change the temperature in a controlled manner, but the absence of such rulings can hardly be constructed as argument for that the spells are designed to include this option.

[Marc R]

I'm still not seeing the power exploit in play here.