Topic: RMU spell: Change profession

[Thot]

I am contemplating a spell list for RMU (probably closed Mentalism) that should contain a spell which allows to permanently change the brain of a subject such that their profession is adjusted, such as from a Fighter to a Thief, or a Paladin to a Cleric, or even from a Rogue to a Sorcerer.

But I must say, I have trouble finding the right level for such spells, and am also looking for ideas for other spells on such a list. ChatGPT proposes something like 7th or 8th level. Does that seem about right to you? What other spells could be on such a list?

[nash]

That would be amazingly powerful without some serious downsides.   Casting a spell 1/level is trivial (and remember ritual casting). 

So basically the existence of the spell means multi-professions is now a thing.  Jump between professions on each level.  The real trick would be semis - switch between a semi and the appropriate arms profession, and you could keep you primary skills developing well and then get cheaper secondary skills and spells on alternating levels.   

So yeah; I'd make it 50th or so?   And then as a GM I'd just ban it outright most likely.

[nash]

One thing I just thought of, fast development rules would mean that a pure jumping to fighter for a level could really ramp up those weapon skills for a level or two.

Not mention moving between professions to get access to some sweat base lists.

[Hurin]

I'd agree with Nash. It is extremely powerful. Looks like a level 50 spell for me.

[MisterK]

ChatGPT probably means 7th or 8th level spell in D&D. Besides, I wouldn't consider it a reference for balancing game rules.

I'd go one step further than Nash : I'd remove professions entirely and make it a profession-less system. That way, you don't need the list :p

But seriously, this is pretty much against one of the core assumptions of the RM character development rules. It's your game, you do what you want with it, but I certainly wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole.

[jdale]

Even if you allow it, it feels more like a ritual than a spell.

[Thot]

I must say I don't quite see how this would be "powerful", because any character can learn any skill anyway. Access to base lists might be an issue, but even so, what good is a magician of 20th level who spent the first ten levels as a fighter? He will be outperformed by any pure magician. Even without looking at the attributes, which will not be exactly suited for such a drastic change.

And seen from an angle within a game world, well, you guys are proposing to put this on the same level as basically immortality (50th level mentalism). That seems quite over the top, doesn't it?

[nash]

The balancing factors between professions is skill cost.  This allows you to bypass it.  Rolemasters unique (rare at least) is everyone can develop any skill.

In extreme cases you are allowing every character to buy every skill at 1/2.  Using fast development rules, that essentially means you buy as many ranks as you want for 2 DP.   That's really cheap.  Adrenal defense and running for monk cost.  Directed spells as a magician. etc

Let's start with a 7th level magician.  Pretty standard development, make sure you have a couple of extra ranks in your base lists (to 10th, really common). Now flip to warrior monk for a single level (level 8 ); nab 16 ranks in Adrenal defence for 31 points, a smattering of combat and weapon skills.   Next level, switch to Mentalist, nab self-healing up to level 18.   And a couple of mentalist base lists while we are here.  Maybe trundle over to fighter or a second level of warrior monk to max out your weapon skills.

At 10th level this magician has an excellent healing list (ie bypassed essence realm limitations), standard magician base lists, and a +80(ish) adrenal defense bonus, +86(ish) weapon bonus.  We just built a character who:

• Magician Base to level
• Mentalism Healing
• Some development in Mentalism Open/Close & Base lists
• Adrenal Defense close to monk
• OB like warrior

Weakest area is armour... 1 more level sorts that out (magicians already have great costs for Transcendence).  Lost a few ranks in PP dev and probably a few Open/Closed lists.  Don't really care - the Munchkin spirit will triumph.

It may not be 50th level, to be fair, I'd probably call it 25-40th, but it breaks fundamental game balancing mechanics so you need to super careful.

[pastaav]

Why not use HARP if you want profession change to be possible?

[rdanhenry]

It's slightly less subject to abuse if you don't allow changing Realm, but only slightly.

[jdale]

I must say I don't quite see how this would be "powerful", because any character can learn any skill anyway. Access to base lists might be an issue, but even so, what good is a magician of 20th level who spent the first ten levels as a fighter? He will be outperformed by any pure magician. Even without looking at the attributes, which will not be exactly suited for such a drastic change.

That's the wrong comparison. Of course a character with 10 levels of Magician and 10 levels of Fighter is not as good at being a Magician as a character with 20 levels of Magician. The important comparison is to a profession with an equal amount of arms and essence, e.g. a warrior mage. A magician/fighter very likely will be better than a warrior mage with an equal number of total levels.

[Cory Magel]

The manner in which I'd allow players to change their profession is making a new character.
I can really only think of one reason to change profession: Gaining the advantage of your past professions skill costs and your future professions skill costs.

If it was a spell?  50th minimum.  By that point you've likely mastered most the skills you want and changing profession providing you cheaper costs won't have as much impact.

[Thot]

[...]
In extreme cases you are allowing every character to buy every skill at 1/2. 

That's simply not true. Even if, for some weird reason, you'd be willing to blow a whole level on just the skills your new profession has at 1/2, all you get for that is 20 skills at +10, AND you aren't advancing in any other skills in that case.

Let's start with a 7th level magician.  Pretty standard development, make sure you have a couple of extra ranks in your base lists (to 10th, really common). Now flip to warrior monk for a single level (level 8 ); nab 16 ranks in Adrenal defence for 31 points, a smattering of combat and weapon skills.

That would take 16 levels.

   Next level, switch to Mentalist, nab self-healing up to level 18.   

And another nine levels.

You are just doing some weird assumptions here. Is it possible you are not talking about RMU at all?

[nash]

I think you missed part of my comment there:
"Using fast development rules, that essentially means you buy as many ranks as you want for 2 DP."

Technically it's "intense training" (pg 83, core law); not fast development; so yes, wrong name.  And yes it requires the use of an optional rule[1]; but I think it's a pretty common option (and in the core book).

The assumptions I made were to ignore profession skills, knacks and stat bonuses.

[1] One piece of feedback about the character sheet I'm developing is it needs to support intense training for multiple skills, not just one.

[jdale]

He's citing the Intense Training optional rule on page 83. It's an optional rule but certainly it would compound the issues.

Still, if you don't take advantage of that, our example Fighter 10/Magician 10 could have 20 ranks in Maneuver in Armor, Body Development, Fortitude, two Combat Expertise skills, two Combat Training skills, Directed Spells, Power Development, and five base lists for 25 DP per level.

A paladin (since we don't have a core warrior mage to use as an example) with the same skills purchased 1 rank/level for 20 levels -- so, same number of ranks -- pays 40 DP per level. Over 20 levels, the multiclassed character has saved 300 DP, which is 5 full levels worth of DP, just on those skills.

The switch is less problematic, though, if you go from a more specialized profession (e.g. fighter, cleric) to a less specialized profession (e.g. paladin), and always keep your original realm(s) (including Arms). So a fighter or a cleric becoming a paladin, a mentalist becoming a mystic, but not a cleric becoming a magician or a fighter becoming a magician. In that case it's more an issue of base lists (easiest solution is you always keep your original base lists). Likewise a fighter becoming a rogue is less problematic than a fighter becoming a thief.

[Thot]

[...]
The important comparison is to a profession with an equal amount of arms and essence, e.g. a warrior mage. A magician/fighter very likely will be better than a warrior mage with an equal number of total levels.

As of now, there is no such thing as a Warrior Mage in RMU.

But for the sake of the argument, let's use a Bard or Dabbler: At level 20, that character will have an OB of something like +110 from skill ranks alone (40 ranks at a cost of 3/5, or 8 per level).
Compared to a Fighter who switched to Magician at level 10 (or vice versa) and is now level 20: 12 points per level for 2 ranks in the primary weapon as a Magician,  4 points per level for 2 ranks as a fighter. Average cost: 8 Points per level! No difference there.

Now, if the latter concentrates  for ten levels on one thing and for another ten levels on the other thing, he will of course have gotten more out of his DP, but at the cost of having lower total skill ranks in any given skill, which means to have less power (though more versatility). It's nice for some character concepts, but hardly game breaking. Seriously, a pure Magician at level 20 will "break the game" more.

Still, I wouldn't want to go as far as allowing to just spend DP to switch profession, as it is a way of thinking that is learned early on one's life that would have to be changed, along with many personal interests and thus maybe even a bit of the personality. It does, however, make total sense to have some Mentalism caster develop spells for such a thing as soon as people are aware that there are different "learning types" who get certain things faster than others.

But I really don't see how such a spell would be 50th level. ChatGPT (which I, btw, asked for explanations of Rolemaster Unified concepts before, and it answered largely correctly) suggested 7th or 8th,. That seems okay, considering the power level of other closed mentalism spell lists at that level, such as teleporting 100 meters. Maybe it's harder to manipulate the mind of a subject than to break the laws of physics entirely, so 10th level? 15th if we're being restrictive?

[Thot]

I think you missed part of my comment there:
"Using fast development rules, that essentially means you buy as many ranks as you want for 2 DP."

You are right, I did. Fast development is indeed a loophole that could be closed in the spell description, such as by stating "the subject may not use 'intense training' for a number of levels equal to his current level, even if the campaign is using that optional rule".

[...]
[1] One piece of feedback about the character sheet I'm developing is it needs to support intense training for multiple skills, not just one.

IMO, intense training is a more profound breakage of the RMU core mechanics than a spell to change professions could be, so I wouldn't use it. At least not as written. That is even more true for allowing it for more than one skill per level. But that would be a whole new thread.

[Thot]

[...]
our example Fighter 10/Magician 10 could have 20 ranks in Maneuver in Armor, Body Development, Fortitude, two Combat Expertise skills, two Combat Training skills, Directed Spells, Power Development, and five base lists for 25 DP per level.
[...]

What would he do with the remaining 35 points per level? Is he really saving that much if you take that into account? And will he really be that better off than someone who started out as a hybrid between the two professions (such as not a Fighter/Cleric, but a Paladin)? Generally, it is better to have higher skill than to have more skills if you want to break game balance.

The switch is less problematic, though, if you go from a more specialized profession (e.g. fighter, cleric) to a less specialized profession (e.g. paladin), and always keep your original realm(s) (including Arms). So a fighter or a cleric becoming a paladin, a mentalist becoming a mystic, but not a cleric becoming a magician or a fighter becoming a magician. In that case it's more an issue of base lists (easiest solution is you always keep your original base lists). Likewise a fighter becoming a rogue is less problematic than a fighter becoming a thief.

Who is more powerful, a Magician who knows his base lists to level 20, or a Magician/Cleric who knows both professions' base lists to level 10?

[pastaav]

Intense training is a more profound breakage of the RMU core mechanics than a spell to change professions could be, so I wouldn't use it, at least not as written, I believe, and much less so for more than one skill per level. But that would be a whole new thread.

I think the other way around...intense training is balanced even if applied to unlimited number of skills since the cost structure will punish use of the rule. Profession change on the other hand is massively abusive even without intense training. Giving access to two professions base lists is insanely powerful.

[Thot]

[...] Profession change on the other hand is massively abusive even without intense training. Giving access to two professions base lists is insanely powerful.

But you have access to all other professions' base lists anyway, albeit at higher cost?

(Though I should add that as written, this only applies to prefessions in one's own realm of power.)