Author Topic: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)  (Read 11036 times)

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Offline PhillipAEllis

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 03:53:21 AM »
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Offline Bruce

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 12:53:33 PM »
Thanks! And here I thought it was in the Creatures and Treasures.....lol. I hope they included it in the reprint.

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Offline jdale

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 10:11:28 PM »
Overall I like the example. I won't quibble about the details. Though I would be inclined to take some of the basic things listed in Arms Law like Called Shots and incorporate them as well (simplify things for beginners, open things up later).

This seems like it could be a good way to handle MA styles and other fighting styles. Just change around the lists and the benefits.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2013, 01:59:44 AM »
...I would be inclined to take some of the basic things listed in Arms Law like Called Shots and incorporate them as well (simplify things for beginners, open things up later).
Ah, yes, that would be a good one for the 1H/Free Hand style in particular.  I like to give each style components that would naturally work well with the specialization.  Where the 1H/Free Hand style is geared towards being more maneuverable I think that would fit in nicely.  Others too, but it seems to be the more obvious one.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2013, 12:46:03 PM »
Simple call shot rule: at 20 ranks in weapon, may use half ranks to mod crit result against stunned foes.  At 30 ranks may use all ranks versus stun no parry (or whatever RMU will eventually use).

A list of feats perks could be written, with players able to choose one when ranks in specific weapon is reached.
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Offline Bruce

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2013, 01:30:20 PM »
I was once working on something like this for my HARP game. I think skill rank perks/benefits are an excellent idea, and not just for combat skills. I think something like this could be used to help make some skills more appealing. One problem I ran into was finding a common way between the skills that was balanced in when and how you got the perks/benefits. I also thought about skill trees where you have pre-reqs for certain perks (i.e. have to get certain other perks first). It would kind of be like scale-able spells in HARP. But would something like this add too much more bookkeeping?
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2013, 03:39:26 PM »
to much book keeping is relative.  I assume the table top audience doesn't mind some book keeping.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2013, 12:55:02 PM »
I don't agree with this assessment.

The fighter only has to get one rank in a spell list and they can use that spell at their FULL LEVEL of ability. Like my 7th level fighter using Shadow, gets to have that spell going for 7 minutes - from a single rank. The mage on the other hand, gets a single rank in a weapon skill and they get what, a +3 or +5 for RMSS/FRP or RM1/2/C, respectively. (Not including the dropping of the -15 or -25 when not having the skill.) To have all the versatility they can get from magic a mage needs to purchase a lot of ranks in a wide variety of spell lists, quite the DP sink, and much harder to do if they are spending 9 DP/level on weapon skills - or more.

Please, don't misunderstand me here; I don't think a fighter (or any pure-arms profession) will be able to cast spells like a mage, because they won't. But I do believe, that a fighter can keep their usefulness, and playability enjoyment factor, by just grabbing a few spells and a couple of ranks in PP development.

In RM it becomes a matter of DP expended for benefit gained and the issue of diminishing returns.

Take a Fighter who has to spend 25DP on a single open spell.  A Mage has to spend 4DP on a single open spell.  So a factor of a little over 6.  A Mage spends only 3 on a BASE spell list, something more powerful.  A factor of a little over 8.
Take a Mage who has to spend 9DP on a single weapon skill.  A Fighter has to spend 1DP on a single weapon skill.  A factor of 9.

That's seems like it should be in the Fighters favor right?  But you're taking about a much larger chunk of the Fighters DP being lost on that one purchase.  And if the Mage buys four spells the Mage has four options, while the Fighter still only has one: Deal damage to the foe.  Also consider the Mage is, comparatively, paying fairly small amounts on Closed and Base lists, things incredibly more expensive for the Fighter.  For the Fighter Closed are 40, own realm other Base are 80.  For the Mage those are 3 and 8.

Then you have to consider the Fighter can only do one thing with his skill, attack you in melee or maybe at range.  His weapon skill can't throw firebolts, turn him invisible, let him fly, create water, heal wounds... the list goes on and on.

At some point the Fighter is thinking: Well, I can spend 6DP to get 1 point of weapon skill (due to diminishing returns) or blow 25DP and get a single spell from an open list (or 40 for closed, or 80 for own base).  While the Mage is thinking: I've got a ton of spells, I might as well spend 9DP to develop a weapon (which never increases).  Now stack the cost of higher level spells for each and the multiplication hits the Fighter even harder.

And, really, as a Mage, I will likely develop that 9DP single weapon rank from the start (but that might just be me).  That way I'll have the option to pick up a missile weapon for example.  While I won't have the +20 prof bonus (a la RMSS) and can't spend more to get the second rank, in the end it will be so much easier to catch up fairly well to the Fighter while the Fighter will struggle just to get just open list spells.

Now, I've played a Rogue - often - and I develop my characters more slowly than others by spreading out my purchasing so I get the most for my DP.  That helps a lot in making a well rounded character than is more self-sufficient than most, but when I maxed out most my relevant skills buying spells wasn't really a realistic option aside from a few 1st-5th levle ones maybe and even that would take time, I'd blow most my points to get three ranks of spells that were almost always weaker than the Mages.  Fortunately we have a robust rune system we use, so I started focusing in 'quasi-magic' stuff with the Rogue... but that was 17th level.  I was already to the point that the Mages and even the Semi's would outshine me other than the fact that I was a meat shield.  "Here, let me be your bodyguard."   :o


Quote
But beyond all of that, I look at it like Jedi vs. Everyone Else in D6 Star Wars: In the beginning Jedi are weaker because they must take attribute dice for Force skills, thusly dropping their attributes - which are a serious pain to increase btw. Only after they have gone a good ways down the Jedi road do they become serious bad-dudes and dudettes. I think that is a fair trade-off. The same goes for Mages vs. Non-Mages in RM, in the beginning Non-Mages are "tougher" in just about every meaning of the word, but when they get their mojo high enough, Mages rock. I don't see this as a problem, but as a feature. The "perfectly balanced" classes (or professions for RM) comes across to me as too artificial and "gamey." I prefer flavor to gamey, so some variance among the professions is OK.

Anyway, isn't this more about what you want to (or feel like) playing and not what is just the most advantageous to "winning?" I play a fighter when I want to play a fighter, a mage when I want to play a mage, a thief when I want to play a thief, etc...

Now, yes, there are other factors like what all the other skills cost and play-style, but we're talking about characters hitting their early teens and on when it comes to this problem.  For a game that has 50th level spells in the core mechanics that has always seemed like a problem to me.  We always retired characters in the mid to upper teens (levels 12-17 or so) and started a new campaign (something I'm hoping to change in my campaign).  I'd like to see characters fairly equal until at least the mid 20's... and that's one of the things I think RMU is going to partially resolve with profession bonuses being ongoing.
- Cory Magel

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2013, 12:37:43 AM »
Well, I would say you have 2 ways of doing that:

1. Increase the cost of magic across the board; spell lists, PP development, etc... So that even full mages, clerics, mentalists, etc... won't be able to have 15 to 20 lists all to their level, but more like 3 to 5 to their level, with another 5 to 7 to half or three-quarters. This one could be done mainly by limited PPs, I think.

2. Give fighters something.  What, I don't know, it could be what was suggested above, the special abilities for increased weapon ranks.

Either way, you are talking about some serious work. Let me know what you come up with.  :angel3:

Oooh, just thought of another way: Bringing in the thread about magic and the game world, and how some of us like to think of magic as well, magic and not science (which it mainly is only for playability), increase the fumble ranges of spell casting or just come up with a chart that you roll on whenever they cast a spell - no matter if they succeed or not. It could have some weird side effects, spell alterations, whatever. (I think this one would not go over well, I think, except with some special players.)
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Offline Hurin

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2013, 12:12:04 PM »
Given that melee combat is I think the only thing that is treated abstractly (i.e. you can swing a sword many more times than once in a round, but only get one attack), you could certainly give multiple attacks for people with high skill ranks in melee weapons. This would represent the fact that attacks made by someone with high skill are more likely to be deadly more often.
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Offline Bruce

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2013, 04:36:41 PM »
Given that melee combat is I think the only thing that is treated abstractly (i.e. you can swing a sword many more times than once in a round, but only get one attack), you could certainly give multiple attacks for people with high skill ranks in melee weapons. This would represent the fact that attacks made by someone with high skill are more likely to be deadly more often.
Hence CEATs (RMC VI) or something similar like what I have been working on (an action point system) inspired by CEATs. It gets rid of the round system and invokes a second by second system which makes the game (especially combat) much more intense and much more fun. In this system fighters can get many more attacks in the time it takes to cast a spell and you can get faster as you get better. The limit on spells is only one spell can be cast in about 10 secs (approx 1 round) because the energy to cast the spell can only be focused so fast.

And for those that might say an initiative system like that is hard to keep track of or takes extra time.... Not really. I had a great method in place, my players got used to it in 3 sessions and they loved it, and in fact it was commented that system was "the best thing about Rolemaster". The only real problem with a system like this is playing in other games that still use the round system, it makes them seem so unrealistic and not as fun. And so board game-ish..........

Bruce
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2013, 05:52:59 PM »
I agree with the ideas put about by both Hurin and Bruce - though I don't know the specifics of CEATS, so I cannot comment on its capabilities. I really think those with high OBs & weapon skill ranks (mostly fighters) should be able to get more attacks without it overly penalizing them.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2013, 11:28:57 AM »
If we didn't have players that want a simpler round we'd be using our own modified CEATS (already exists cause we've already done it).  My modified round is a result of trying to strike a balance between simple and tactical.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Bruce

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2013, 08:46:35 PM »
Quote
If we didn't have players that want a simpler round we'd be using our own modified CEATS (already exists cause we've already done it).  My modified round is a result of trying to strike a balance between simple and tactical.
I used a slightly modified version of CEATs back in the 90's. I've been toying with my newer "inspired by CEATs" Action Point system for a few years now. So far it worked great with the one group I tried it on. I will eventually spring it on the players in my new group once everything gets up and rolling. I think it still needs some tweaks and these new players seem like they can offer some good insight.
It made all the difference for me when it came to balance with spell users.

If your modified round system works towards that balance you should post it for others to get an idea of the difference it makes.

Bruce
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2013, 10:10:03 PM »
I have worked on continuing to modify a second by second system, but stopped once we found some of our regulars weren't having as much fun with it.  I want things like facing, speed factors, and reach to play a role in the combat if using a second to second setup.  But that was just getting too detailed for a couple of them.  Besides, year ago we split up our circle into different groups and we're getting close to that being needed again... so I like to keep the rounds going by faster so that I can realistically fit six people into a game than five and still keep things flowing along (although, admittedly, eliminating a couple specific people that slowed things down helped just as much).

I've kept away from publishing my new round semi or fully officially because I hadn't had anyone outside us use it yet and I wasn't sure how much of our play style made parts of it work better or worse for other groups.  One of the reasons I feel RMU was combed through a little too closely in an effort to remove 'excpetions'.  There will ALWAYS be exceptions in a good system, you can't make a rule for everything and remain usable imo.  In trying to purge them all you just end up changing things that didn't really need changing and you still end up with exceptions.  I have always wondered just how many exceptions other groups could find in my round setup that we hadn't yet.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Bruce

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2013, 11:08:21 AM »
I have always wondered just how many exceptions other groups could find in my round setup that we hadn't yet.
There is only one way to find out, post it in the downloads section......I would look it over and let you know possibly even bringing it to my group for use.

Bruce
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2013, 12:11:22 PM »
I'll have to start to put it into a slightly more professional and organized format.  It's already part way there, but spare time is a bit rare for me these days (I shouldn't here now!)
- Cory Magel

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Offline Dakadin

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2013, 04:02:24 PM »
I would be interested in looking at it also.  ;)

Offline dutch206

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2013, 05:35:08 PM »
I have submitted an article on this topic to The Vault.  ("New professions for RMC")  Since the changes are mainly cosmetic, it should convert to RMSS fairly easily.  I would appreciate it if people would review the article and offer feedback.  I really do think my proposed solution is the best way to give fighters and thieves new things to look forward to at high levels.
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: realm of Arms shortchanged (Any RM Version)
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2013, 01:08:16 PM »
Absolutely. We also have sock puppets and interpretive dance to fall back on. :)

Hey! I played in a game using sock puppets! Though, in that case I was roleplaying a Larry Niven Pierson's Puppeteer, but still!
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