Topic: Armor penalties question

[Zut]

Hi!

I suppose this question has been addressed before, but my search in the forum didn't give results so far, so if someone can point me in the right direction...

So there it is: I'm puzzled as to how the maneuver penalties for wearing armor works. I'm ok with the part of applying this to skills using Qu and Ag as modifiers. But... which number to apply? How is this related to the Armor skill? I don't understand the example.

Suppose I have no ranks in the Armor skill, no bonuses from stats, adolescence, etc., and wearing unfitted soft leather. So I have a total modifier of

a) -25
b) -56 (-25-26)
c) -26 (as this is unfitted max MP)
d) something else?

and I will still receive a net DB on +20 from the armor?

When I have 1 rank in the Armor skill, what will be the penalty amount?

And if I have a positive Qu (and/or Ag?) stat bonus (e.g. +4), in what way will that change the penalty?

Thanks in advance!

[LonePaladin]

Okay, here's how it works.

• Calculate the bonus for the relevant armor skill, as usual.
• Add this amount to the armor's Maximum Maneuver Penalty; since this number is negative, any bonus in the skill will reduce the penalty.
• The armor's penalty cannot go any higher than the Maximum Maneuver Penalty, even if your skill in the armor is negative.

To give you a couple concrete examples:

• You have +2 Ag, +6 St, 3 ranks in Armor • Medium, and 7 ranks in the Chain skill. Your skill bonus is +14 (stat) +6 (category) +21 (skill) = +41. You don a chain shirt (AT 13), whose Maximum Maneuver Mod is –70. Adding +41 to that results in –29, so that's your maneuver penalty.
• You're a ridiculously beefed-out fighter, with +12 St, +6 Ag, 20 ranks in Armor • Heavy, and 20 ranks in Plate. Your total skill mod is +30 (stats) +10 (profession) +30 (category) +50 (skill) = +120. You put on a suit of half-plate (AT 19), which has a max penalty of –150. Applying your skill would normally reduce this penalty to –30, but its Minimum Maneuver Mod is –35, so you use that.

This help any?

[Zhaleskra]

LonePaladin: That's fine for RM, but this is the HARP forum, and HARP has a single Armor skill. Your first example would have +8 Stat, +15 skill for a total of 23, and would be spending those 7 ranks on "Chain" on something else. Likewise, your second example would have +18 Stat, +70 Skill for a total of 88, and would be spending those 20 ranks on "Plate" on something else, again.

Zut: That said no skill in armor, unfitted soft leather gets you -26 (Maximum Unfitted Maneuver Penalty, the extra -1 is for being unfitted). Quickness does not help you with the armor penalty at all as the Armor skill is St/Ag. Now if your Ag bonus is +4 your penalty is now -22, 1 less than having a single rank in Armor.

[LonePaladin]

LonePaladin: That's fine for RM, but this is the HARP forum, and HARP has a single Armor skill.

My apologies, I didn't spot that. Sorry if I confused the issue.

[Zhaleskra]

My apologies, I didn't spot that. Sorry if I confused the issue.

Quite all right, I just wanted to make sure our OP didn't get confused.

[Zut]

Thanks for both answers!

So to put it in other words (as I want to be sure to get it), the maneuver penalty doesn't stack with a 0 rank armor skill; I use the MP instead of the -25 "bonus" and add all the other bonuses over it (stat bonus, rank bonus, special bonus, etc.).

I think this should be stated explicitly in the skill as this can get confusing.

[ReaperWolf]

So to put it in other words (as I want to be sure to get it), the maneuver penalty doesn't stack with a 0 rank armor skill; I use the MP instead of the -25 "bonus" and add all the other bonuses over it (stat bonus, rank bonus, special bonus, etc.). I think this should be stated explicitly in the skill as this can get confusing.

Agreed, I always figured this was the case, more or less gleaned from Rolemaster but it would be nice if future printings specifically stated this.

>>ReaperWolf

[Zhaleskra]

Yes, the more we can help people reading the rules understand the intention of the first read through, the better.

[Zut]

Another question popped into my head, this time about the minimum maneuver penalty.


Situation 1:

I have enough ranks in the armor skill to overcome the penalty. For soft leather, it means a minimum penalty of -6, and 4 ranks (+20) are enough to get from -26 to -6. So I add -6 to all skills with agility or quickness. Right?

The armor skill uses agility as one of the modifying stats. But that wouldn't make sense to reapply the -6 to the armor skill. (?)


Situation 2:

Same as situation 1, but with stats bonuses. For example, St: +4, and Ag: +3. If the stats can be added to the lower bound of the MP
-26 (soft leather) +4 +3 (St, Ag) = -19
is it the same for the upper bound?
-6 (soft leather +4 skill ranks) +4 +3 = +1

[Zut]

And I forgot one question: with skills using both Ag and Qu bonuses (like pick-pockets), do I modify the skill bonus with double MP?

[Zhaleskra]

I wouldn't think so, I see the Maneuver Penalty as an overall penalty, and doubling it just doesn't make sense to me. Armor is hard to move in until you're used to it, and both stats are being reduced by the same thing: the armor restricting movement. Granted, I only gave suggestions for HARP Fantasy and am not an official on the subject.

Although the Armor section says that the penalty applies to all tasks with Ag or Qu as a modifier, since the Armor skill reduces the penalty, it would be illogical to apply the penalty to the Armor skill itself.

In your second situation, your total bonus would be +7 for the reason I discussed above.

[Zut]

I wouldn't think so, I see the Maneuver Penalty as an overall penalty, and doubling it just doesn't make sense to me. Armor is hard to move in until you're used to it, and both stats are being reduced by the same thing: the armor restricting movement. Granted, I only gave suggestions for HARP Fantasy and am not an official on the subject.

Thank you for your answers (anyway)!

I agree that double MP will be too much. I thought I should be asking, just in case.

Although the Armor section says that the penalty applies to all tasks with Ag or Qu as a modifier, since the Armor skill reduces the penalty, it would be illogical to apply the penalty to the Armor skill itself.

I agree also.

In your second situation, your total bonus would be +7 for the reason I discussed above.

So... a positive bonus?   to apply to all skills using Ag and Qu? or I misread your answer? The way the armor penalty is written, I assumed I would need to keep the minimal penalty of -6, no matter what.

[Zhaleskra]

So... a positive bonus?   to apply to all skills using Ag and Qu? or I misread your answer? The way the armor penalty is written, I assumed I would need to keep the minimal penalty of -6, no matter what.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Only for the Armor skill. Everything else using Ag and/or Qu gets the +1.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Another question popped into my head, this time about the minimum maneuver penalty.


Situation 1:

I have enough ranks in the armor skill to overcome the penalty. For soft leather, it means a minimum penalty of -6, and 4 ranks (+20) are enough to get from -26 to -6. So I add -6 to all skills with agility or quickness. Right?

The armor skill uses agility as one of the modifying stats. But that wouldn't make sense to reapply the -6 to the armor skill. (?)

The penalty is a *maneuver* penalty, i.e. it is applied as a penalty when you use the skill in a maneuver roll. The Armor skill is not normally used as a maneuver (I hesitate to say never as extreme cases could exist). It is simply a shorthand on character sheets to apply the penalty to the skill. So no, Armor penalty penalising Armor skill should not occur.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Prydeson]

Another question which I already posted in the wrong place: say that I've got a Qu of 76, thus a Qu Bonus of 6. This should grant me a DB of 12.

Now I want to be a little safer when hit, thus I use a Soft Leather Armor (fitted) and I train (4 ranks) for that, so my DB becomes 32. Argh, this has a casting penalty of +2, but I will live with that.

If I want to be even safer, I'd go for a Studded Leather Armor (fitted), which requires 8 ranks of training and has a casting penalty of +4. I get a DB of 37... sigh. And I also get a -5 to my OB and any other ability related to movement, like Climbing, Riding, Jumping, Ambush, Locks & Traps, Stalking & Hiding or Sniping.

Well, this is sadly unbalanced. This is why everyone goes for talents: Agile Defense, Dense Musculature, and Instinctive Defense.

[Zut]

So, maybe the talents are too easy to get?

[Prydeson]

So, maybe the talents are too easy to get?

Do you mean in HARP or in the game we are running?

[ReaperWolf]

Well, this is sadly unbalanced. This is why everyone goes for talents: Agile Defense, Dense Musculature, and Instinctive Defense.

Hopefully Martial Law 2.0 will include the crit adjustments based upon armor.

This made wearing heavier armor a good idea as our monk learned after being one-shot killed by a giant crab claw in the first few minutes of our game a few years back.

>>ReaperWolf

[Zut]

So... a positive bonus?   to apply to all skills using Ag and Qu? or I misread your answer? The way the armor penalty is written, I assumed I would need to keep the minimal penalty of -6, no matter what.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Only for the Armor skill. Everything else using Ag and/or Qu gets the +1.

So that means that the character is more skilled with armor than without it? Isn't it odd?

[Zut]

So, maybe the talents are too easy to get?

Do you mean in HARP or in the game we are running?

Probably in HARP in general. I thought you quoted a general view on the subject, not your game in particular. 

On the other hand, armor gives you more DB anytime than what you could get by transfering OB, and you don't need to be aware of the attack. When facing multiple oponents, that could give an edge, isn't it? (I'm trying to find good reasons for why to wear armor!  )