Topic: Revisiting "Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving"

[C.Tozer]

Some help here please to get the communities opinions after a recent character death. Mainly a question RM2/Classic folk here but welcome general thoughts RE RMSS etc too 

Way back in 2012 there was a discussion on the Ice Forums entitled "Death, Stat Loss and Lifegiving" (see: https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=11521.20)

One of the key points that came out of that debate was if there was any way to get a revived characters stats back (including potential stats). The consensus was that, short of divine intervention, there is no way to bring the potential stats back once they reach "0".
One of the other points made in the debate is that the Lifegiving Spells (or Herbs I guess) are kinda useless as, yes you may be able to give life to someone who has been dead for 1 year but if their potential stats are at "0" why bother.

In RM Classic Character Law p.149 it says: "If potentials have deteriorated, stats cannot be raised above the new, inferior potentials until the potentials are restored (usually only by very powerful spells)."

Four questions from me, building on that discussion:

   1. What are the "very powerful spells" mentioned and where can they be found?  I can't seem to locate in the core RM Spell Law book. In the old 2012 discussion it does reference the Restoration spell (level 19, Life Mastery, Cleric Base, p.118 Spell Law). Could that be the "Very high spells"? The description talks about "mental capabilities" but doesn't specifically mention stats. Assuming that works for the mental stats where are the "Very high spells" for restoring physical stats? Also assuming that Restoration, assuming that is what the designers were thinking of in terms of stat recovery, only covers temp and not potential stats?
   2. On page 115 in the Herb section under "Stat Modifiers" is listed the following: Lestagii, (a-Z-9), Cryst/ingest, 520gp, AF45. "Restores any stat losses other than those due to age. Affects only one stat." Do you think, the way that its written, that herb is designed to recover/heal potential as well as temp stats?
   3. What is your opinion of the use of Lifegiving Spells (or Herbs) in your games, particularly in refrence to "0" ptoential stats
   4. How do you handle stat loss and recovery (either temporary or potential) in your games? Do you play RAW or house rule or something in between? Why?

Thanks and very keen to hear your thoughts! 

Ps - also posted on the IceFacebook too. 

[MisterK]

Preservation and Lifekeeping are the unlucky adventurer's best friends.

Beyond that, I think the Lifegiving spells have not been designed to raise people who have been dead for a while and left unattended. Rather, they were meant to raise people who have been properly preserved until a Lifegiving spell could be cast. You don't go in a graveyard and cast Lifegiving on corpses to bring them back to life - if you want to raise the ancient dead, then Necromancy or Alchemy are the ways to go.

It must be noted that, in RMSS, the "very powerful spells" have been reworded into "very powerful magic", which is much less specific and hints at things that are basically GM fiat. They could have added 'beyond the scope of these rules' to be perfectly clear.

About Lestagii, I would rule that it can restore stat loss due to deterioration. The AF is crippling and you would need to restore all ten stats, ensuring a terminal-level addict by the time the job's completed

Temporary stat loss can be handled by the Heal Life Essence spells in the Life Mastery list (RMSS - those spells are not available in RM2). I would allow the spell to heal any stat (not merely CO), albeit possibly at reduced efficiency. Potential stat loss is tough luck, except that it can be indirectly healed if the cause of the stat loss is healed - if you lose CO because of a collapsed lung, restoring the organ would also restore the loss of potential. ME and RE would be affected by brain damage. I'm not sure you could heal EM, IN and PR in this way.

[netbat]

There are a couple of level 75+ spells in roco IV and VI that can raise or restore stats. Not sure if they are what was referred to though.

[C.Tozer]

Excellent! Thanks very much for a great answer MisterK ... just what I was looking for!

Preservation and Lifekeeping are the unlucky adventurer's best friends.

Beyond that, I think the Lifegiving spells have not been designed to raise people who have been dead for a while and left unattended. Rather, they were meant to raise people who have been properly preserved until a Lifegiving spell could be cast. You don't go in a graveyard and cast Lifegiving on corpses to bring them back to life - if you want to raise the ancient dead, then Necromancy or Alchemy are the ways to go.

Yes indeed RE Preservation and Lifekeeping! For sure that is true.

Your comments about "Lifegiving spells have not been designed to raise people who have been dead for a while" I think is accurate too. As you say there are other, darker options for bringing back the long dead.

It must be noted that, in RMSS, the "very powerful spells" have been reworded into "very powerful magic", which is much less specific and hints at things that are basically GM fiat. They could have added 'beyond the scope of these rules' to be perfectly clear.

Got it! That makes sense now. To note the other person in this chat has kindly IDed a 75th level spell from a later companion.

About Lestagii, I would rule that it can restore stat loss due to deterioration. The AF is crippling and you would need to restore all ten stats, ensuring a terminal-level addict by the time the job's completed

Assume you mean both temp and potential stat loss from deterioration? Pretty sure its implied in your answer but just wanted to double check. And yeah .. OUCH RE the AF rate. As you say after 10 stats that could get interesting.

Temporary stat loss can be handled by the Heal Life Essence spells in the Life Mastery list (RMSS - those spells are not available in RM2). I would allow the spell to heal any stat (not merely CO), albeit possibly at reduced efficiency. Potential stat loss is tough luck, except that it can be indirectly healed if the cause of the stat loss is healed - if you lose CO because of a collapsed lung, restoring the organ would also restore the loss of potential. ME and RE would be affected by brain damage. I'm not sure you could heal EM, IN and PR in this way.

This makes sense thanks and yep in a later RM2 companion (II or III from memory) there is the same spell but the description is annoyingly vauge.

Again thanks for taking the time to respond. Your answer has really helped both myself and my game out!
[/quote]

[C.Tozer]

There are a couple of level 75+ spells in roco IV and VI that can raise or restore stats. Not sure if they are what was referred to though.

Thanks very much Netbat! I've tracking them both done and very helpful. Cheers

[Taeflon]

The "Ephemeral Enhancement" spell list from RMC V (RM2) might be the one you are looking for. It can restore stats and even raise them and reorganize them.

[MisterK]

The "Ephemeral Enhancement" spell list from RMC V (RM2) might be the one you are looking for. It can restore stats and even raise them and reorganize them.

The only spell that could have an effect is the Restore spell, but the spell description explicitly limits the restoring to losses due to attacks and excludes 'natural' causes. Death is a pretty natural cause. It also has a limit on the number of days elapsed since the stat loss, but that's peripheral.
All the other spells have a non-permanent duration, making them unsuitable, except the level 30 spell Increase Potential, which more or less does the job (even though it's not 'restore' per se) but can only be used once per stat (at level 30, you will get a 10-point increase). This spell has an incredible potential for power creep as well, especially when it's used on already high stats.

Additionally, I find it odd that the Restore I spell indicates that the stat restoration can be either temporary or potential... yet there is a 20th level spell called 'restore potential' with a description that says 'as Restore I, except statistic potentials can be restored', which basically invalidates part of the Restore I spell description.

I don't think this list has been designed, proof-read, or playtested appropriately - sadly, much like an increasingly significant part of the various RM2 companions. But as all options, it's your game decision. Just keep in mind that even if you use it for stat restoration due to natural causes, most of the spells on the list deal with more versatile effects. When I read it, I get the impression that someone wanted to be able to have their character switch professions and rearrange stats so that they would be optimal for the new setup and decided to make a list out of it. I guess it clashes with how I understand attributes and professions in the game.