Author Topic: The price of skyships and air barges....  (Read 4002 times)

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Offline Thot

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The price of skyships and air barges....
« on: November 26, 2019, 11:02:48 AM »
Doing some math with the figures given in Eidolon, I came to the following prices  for buying a skyship, air barge or regular seagoing vessel, all based on the caravel given on p. 139 of that book.

Skyship: Just under 16 million gold pieces.
Air barge: Just under 20 million gold pieces.
Regular seagoing ship: about 3,000 gold pieces.

Now, this is the three-year revenue of the ship with quite a few assumptions, and the operating cost for three years of operation is included in the figure, obviously. But this gives a good estimate to the prices of those ships.

But still, this is... I mean, according to RMFRP's Treasure Companion, 4 copper pieces is a regular farmer's daily income, which translates into an annual income worth roughly 1.46 gold pieces.  Say the actual worth of his pre-tax work is roughly double that, then a lord will earn 1.5 gold pieces per year per peasant (more from more qualified subjects, of course).  In order to afford a seagoing ship, the lord will need about 2000 subjects (paying for nothing but the ship for a whole year). The same lord would need a whole country the size of medieval Germany or France to afford one skyship.

Now, obviously the high-magic world of Kulthea will have a much higher per capita GDP than 3 gold pieces. But the above results show just how much higher it is: Eidolon has probably dozens, if not a hundred skyships, counting both private and military craft, and that is in addition to its normal infrastructure, its seagoing vessels, Eidolon itself of course - and this is just one city!

Mind -> blown. :)






Offline Jenkyna

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2019, 06:09:41 PM »
You could borrow a page out of Traveller, and have the PCs finance their slightly used Skyship. The PC then have to make it a point to move cargo and earn money to make their quarterly payments to the Eidolon bank.

Offline Thot

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2019, 01:57:20 AM »
I am sure you could make a fascinating campaign out of that. But for me, these numbers are more interesting because they put things in perspective and allow for quite a few interesting conclusions about Kulthea:

  • Eidolon/SelKai must have a large trade empire with outposts across the globe, similar to renaissance Venice, but larger in scale.
  • The citizens of this city, even the poorer ones, must be incredibly rich compared to other people.
  • Magic (and thus spellcasting) and primitive technology must be relatively widespread, to allow for such high GDP numbers.


Offline Majyk

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2019, 07:43:45 AM »
I always thought of Eidolon/Sel-kai as Renn-era Venice, so you’re close!

Offline RandalThor

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2019, 10:03:30 PM »
  • The citizens of this city, even the poorer ones, must be incredibly rich compared to other people.
This is not necessarily true, as evident by several 'wealthy' nations in our own world that have large numbers of seriously poor people.
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Offline jdale

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2019, 10:58:53 PM »
For comparison, Wikipedia lists the cost of a Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carrier at $13 billion. That is 418019 times the median US income in 2016 ($31099).

1/418019th of the price of a 20 million gold air barge is about 48 gold. That might be a reasonable estimate of the median income in a Rolemaster nation. (The mean income would be higher, since the people who are rich are very rich.)
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2019, 04:10:11 PM »
For comparison, Wikipedia lists the cost of a Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carrier at $13 billion. That is 418019 times the median US income in 2016 ($31099).

1/418019th of the price of a 20 million gold air barge is about 48 gold. That might be a reasonable estimate of the median income in a Rolemaster nation. (The mean income would be higher, since the people who are rich are very rich.)

48 Gold is much too high. A unskilled laborer in England in the 1300s made about £2 a year. That was roughly the equivalent in £650 in 1990 dollars based on what I've read. A feudal peasant would likely go their life without seeing many silver coins, let alone ever laying eyes on a gold coin. A master armorer would make a good deal more, but still less than £20.

https://thehistoryofengland.co.uk/resource/medieval-prices-and-wages/

Ultimately I think an unskilled laborer in ShadowWorld is going to work their ass off for very little coin in return.

I think you're exactly right in terms of what national wealth can do compared to individual wealth, but a Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier is probably not the best comparison to a skyship.

With all that said, in game economies aren't so much of an economy as they are a reward / storytelling system. I think that tends to throw the concept of economics completely off in a game setting.

Offline jdale

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2019, 09:38:16 PM »
Magic will push mean income up because you basically now have an additional middle class. And actually at Rolemaster prices, you could strike it rich just foraging for herbs. How high exactly that takes it, I don't know.

But anyway, that's good I think, that a skyship is not as much cost relative to the total economy as a modern aircraft carrier.
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2019, 12:29:22 AM »
Magic will push mean income up because you basically now have an additional middle class. And actually at Rolemaster prices, you could strike it rich just foraging for herbs. How high exactly that takes it, I don't know.

That's an interesting idea. I think it would depend a lot on how common magic is.

Offline Thot

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2019, 12:37:47 AM »
Magic will push mean income up because you basically now have an additional middle class. And actually at Rolemaster prices, you could strike it rich just foraging for herbs. How high exactly that takes it, I don't know.
[...]

Well, RoleMaster's magic is the equivalent of 20th century technology, with some things being much more powerful even. And we all know what today's per capita GDP roughly is compared to those medieval numbers... as Shadow World is a high magic world, I think it's fair to assume people, at least magically educated people or those with mundane skills at similar levels, will have much higher income than in history.


Offline RandalThor

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2019, 04:15:18 PM »
Ultimately I think an unskilled laborer in ShadowWorld is going to work their ass off for very little coin in return.
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Magic will push mean income up because you basically now have an additional middle class.
I agree with Jenkyna on this because I don't think I ever read of any nation of Kulthea diverging from the typical model of: An Upper-Class being a small percentage of the population & a Lower-Class being the vast majority of the population, with some Merchant/Middle-Class sprinkled in there. Because of this, we can only extrapolate that they are similar in this regard to our own, meaning that the upper-class will do what it can to keep a stranglehold on the wealth/power - each to a greater or lesser degree. Add in the fact that individuals can attain immense personal powers and you give those in power more capabilities to hold on to their power.

But what of those lower-class people who have magic? Well, think of it this way: today we have different levels of access to tools of learning. If you are exceptionally wealthy you can go to one of the 'big' schools like Harvard, Cambridge, MIT, etc... which an employer would consider above the college they had to look up in order to know where it was. Not only that, the connections being at that level would entail. The same goes for a magic world. The upper-class would have greater access to more capable instructors, and they very likely don't have anything close to resembling scholarships.

I just don't think it is in anyway accurate to assume that the commoner would be wealthy just because the upper-class is exceedingly wealthy. In fact, I would argue that it would be the opposite because at any given moment all resources are finite - even the imaginary / made-up ones like money - so if some have so much, then others will have very little.

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And actually at Rolemaster prices, you could strike it rich just foraging for herbs. How high exactly that takes it, I don't know.
As for the herb gathering, in a world where it is likely 100x more dangerous to go out into the wild than it is on our world (or more, I would believe), very few would be able to do this. That is likely a big reason for the cost of many herbs as it contributes to the rarity of them. So, if you are able, sure it is a good paying job, but dangerous and you could die on each and every trip out. Sure, some can be garden-grown, but I think the most expensive types can't.

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That's an interesting idea. I think it would depend a lot on how common magic is.
This has been a bone of contention with me. I think the setting is high magic, but so many argue that it is not, that the average person on Kulthea sees magic maybe once or twice in their lifetime. I think that is more like per week. I am not talking about big spells, but the basic low level healing that would be performed by the priests on a regular basis. Of course, the more prevalent it is, the less $$$ spellcasting is worth. (Not saying that is a bad thing, mind you.)

PS: I still cannot use the various tools of the message board, such as the bold, emojis, expanding/contracting the window, multi-quoting posts, etc... anyone know how to get this cleared up? (PM me so we don't but in on the thread.)
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2019, 11:07:34 AM »
For comparison, Wikipedia lists the cost of a Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carrier at $13 billion. That is 418019 times the median US income in 2016 ($31099).

Which means Bill Gates could easily become one of the dominant naval powers in the world. Until he ran out of the money needed to run them.

This has been a bone of contention with me. I think the setting is high magic, but so many argue that it is not, that the average person on Kulthea sees magic maybe once or twice in their lifetime. I think that is more like per week. I am not talking about big spells, but the basic low level healing that would be performed by the priests on a regular basis. Of course, the more prevalent it is, the less $$$ spellcasting is worth. (Not saying that is a bad thing, mind you.)

I do feel magic should be a lot more common than it seemingly is. To get that 20th level caster, I think you need many magnitudes more 1st level casters. So, I would actually expect a significant minority of the population to be able to cast a spell. Even if it's only to boil water.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2019, 12:50:41 PM »

Air barge: Just under 20 million gold pieces.


20 Million??  None of my players take Basic Math.  The PCs couldn't count to 20!
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2019, 03:17:14 PM »
I do feel magic should be a lot more common than it seemingly is. To get that 20th level caster, I think you need many magnitudes more 1st level casters. So, I would actually expect a significant minority of the population to be able to cast a spell. Even if it's only to boil water.
If you go by the RMFRP rules and make an Urban character, they get 2 ranks in spells automatically. So, all cities are full of individuals who can cast at least 2 spells by those rules.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2019, 07:41:55 AM »
I do feel magic should be a lot more common than it seemingly is. To get that 20th level caster, I think you need many magnitudes more 1st level casters. So, I would actually expect a significant minority of the population to be able to cast a spell. Even if it's only to boil water.
If you go by the RMFRP rules and make an Urban character, they get 2 ranks in spells automatically. So, all cities are full of individuals who can cast at least 2 spells by those rules.
I'm not sure it is adequate for the general population. It might be adequate for Player Characters, who are exceptional individuals, but not for your average citizen of Sel-Kai city or Haalkitaine.
YMMV, but when I look at the magical teaching offering in those cities, one thing is fairly obvious: it about as available as University learning was in the late middle ages. Which translates as, not really unless you're both lucky (so that a benefactor would find you) and gifted, or come from an opulent background. The number of schools that would teach magic is small, and the number of teachers are limited.
Of course, a number of unaffiliated teachers exist, and they would take individual apprentices. Probably no more than one at a time, though, in a way similar to a medieval craftsman. All in all, the number of people who would have access to magical training of any kind would be fairly small - depending on the prevalence of magical abilities, population view of magic, and overall societal and political context, 1-3% of the population, I would say. Mind you, this means that there might be about 500 magically capable people in Haalkitaine, which is far from rare. It's just that you don't expect you baker, tavernkeeper, or girl next door to be a magic user - however, you would probably know of one in your neighbourhood, unless they are very careful about staying unconspicuous (which would be a good thing in Haalkitaine, since magic use is regulated).

Of course, this is very culture-specific. I would expect elvish cultures (notably Namar-Tol) to have a higher percentage, and a *much* higher percentage among the patrician class: natural affinity for magic + plenty of free time and the means to support basically any occupation + achievement-oriented culture + no cultural bias against magic = pretty much every patrician would know *some* magic. As a comparison, I would expect the Rhakhaan nobility to have a much lower % of magically capable people (but still significantly higher than the general population of Rhakhaan), mostly because of cultural biases and societal pressure - men would be expected to become warriors, and women would be expected to marry well :-(

To make things clear, my take on a "low-magic" setting is that the number of practitioners of magic is very low - less than 2 per 1000 people. Your average high fantasy setting is about the same as what I would expect from Shadow World (between 1 and 3% - your average village has at least half a dozen of them). Anything significantly higher is a modern magical society, with magical learning accessible to the masses and social constructs adapting to that (there's this little Visual Novel called 'An Octave Higher' that provides an interesting take on what a industrial society based on magic could be).

Once again, to each their own, I suppose. It's just that I cannot see a society where 99% of the people work their butt off for a living (and support both their children and their elders) have the time to learn magic.

Offline Hurin

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2019, 09:16:37 AM »
Note that while basic income is going to be much higher in a city such as Sel Kai, the cost of living is also going to be very high. A $50,000 income can support a family in some of the smaller towns and cities of the USA. In New York City, that wouldn't even pay your rent. So while incomes are higher in Sel Kai, the cost of living is much higher too.

I've always gotten the impression that magic abounds in Shadow World's Venice (Sel Kai). With that much money circulating, cost is not much of a problem. The only other limiting factor is access to spell lists, and in a big cosmopolitan metropolis, that shouldn't be too much of an issue either.

RMU further lowers the costs for arms users getting spells, and indeed the cost of spells across the board (7/10 is the lowest for any class, compared to 20 in RM2), which means that in RMU's version of Sel Kai, pretty much everyone could have a spell or two, providing they have access to some spell lists.
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2019, 11:44:42 AM »
I don't think I ever read of any nation of Kulthea diverging from the typical model of: An Upper-Class being a small percentage of the population & a Lower-Class being the vast majority of the population, with some Merchant/Middle-Class sprinkled in there.

In our own world the middle class makes up almost half of today’s society, but in a feudal society more than 90% of the people were peasants. That would mean the middle class was a much smaller percentage of the population than it is today. It’s also interesting to note that in renaissance society the middle class was below the merchant class. You had four classes: peasants, middle class, a merchant class who were rich, and nobles - who were sometimes poor.

But what of those lower-class people who have magic? Well, think of it this way: today we have different levels of access to tools of learning. If you are exceptionally wealthy you can go to one of the 'big' schools like Harvard, Cambridge, MIT, etc... which an employer would consider above the college they had to look up in order to know where it was. Not only that, the connections being at that level would entail. The same goes for a magic world. The upper-class would have greater access to more capable instructors, and they very likely don't have anything close to resembling scholarships.

One of the prices listed on the link I posted was the cost of a year at Oxford @ £8.5, which was well out of reach of almost every profession listed.

One of my favorite ShadowWorld supplements from old ICE was the one with the magical college on the hidden isle. That’s a place where magic likely would be much more commonplace. No idea if Terry considers that one canon.

Sel-Kai has schools that teach magic, so it’s definitely something that is present in the city. I think there is a comment in one of the books that many have magical aptitude, but have never received training. Certainly, that idea is presented in Loremaster Legacy.

I just don't think it is in anyway accurate to assume that the commoner would be wealthy just because the upper-class is exceedingly wealthy. In fact, I would argue that it would be the opposite because at any given moment all resources are finite - even the imaginary / made-up ones like money - so if some have so much, then others will have very little.

The information I found was mostly on the 1300s. The Renaissance period that Sel-Kai is supposed to be based on would probably have somewhat higher income, but I am still pretty sure the average person back then never laid eyes on a gold coin in their life, and the peasant class would still have made up 80 – 85% of society.

It’s also worth noting that while some shopkeepers came from the lower class, most of them came from wealth. Regardless of skill, it took wealth to start a business. In Paris shopkeepers lived over their shops, and interestingly the nobles lived on the ground floor of their buildings. With no elevators to carry you up five floors a person’s social status was measured in part by not having to climb stairs. The lowest servants lived on the top floor, and today those servants’ quarters sell for millions in districts like the Latin Quarter or the area in and around St Germain. 

As for the herb gathering, in a world where it is likely 100x more dangerous to go out into the wild than it is on our world (or more, I would believe), very few would be able to do this.


Xaar has a good example of this,
(click to show/hide)


This has been a bone of contention with me. I think the setting is high magic, but so many argue that it is not, that the average person on Kulthea sees magic maybe once or twice in their lifetime. I think that is more like per week.

This is really up to the GM & Players imo. I see ShadowWorld as high magic in the sense that it is more like Faerûn than it is Middle Earth. I don’t see ShadowWorld's magic as being commonplace like it is in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, with modern conveniences being replaced by magic, and usually for the better.  The amount of magic you see in Kulthea each week is likely to be based on your role in society. The average farmer would probably never see magic at any point in their life, but a Loremaster could see it daily. An ordinary person living in a city might see it every so often, but it would be a noteworthy event.

I also tend towards Dragons being legends that no common folk believe still exist, and the civilization of the K’ta’viir being so far lost in the past that only a select few like the Loremasters or the Jerak Ahrenreth know they were a real thing 100,000+ years ago. It’s not that the players will never encounter these realities, but in my mind 1st level PCs aren’t wise to the secrets of the world and must grow into that knowledge. 

That’s just me though. If the game you want to run has common magic, and legendary beings are more commonplace, then go for it. I don’t think there is only one right way to run an RPG, or a setting, and I really disagree with the sentiment of "no you have to do it this way because "creators intent!" I’m also of the opinion that if someone wants to run a high-level game there is no reason they shouldn’t do so as long as you are committed to doing it well for the sake of the players.

I do think Kulthea has three major limitations on the free exercise of magical power.

Flowstorms can be triggered by runaway magic, which makes problematic to cast high level spells.

Groups like the Jerak Ahrenreth seek to kill or subvert powerful spellcasters. If you have power you probably don’t display it openly. By the time you have that sort of power you likely know about these sorts of groups.

Portals to the ash lairs or the pales can open randomly, and magic running wild can sometimes serve as a catalyst. Having a demon from beyond the Pale demon step though a portal into your living room at dinner time is usually a downer; especially if he then tries to sell you aluminum siding.

Offline Thot

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2019, 12:18:12 PM »
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Sel-Kai has schools that teach magic, so it’s definitely something that is present in the city.

There is also the elephant in the room. That is, the city in the sky.

Offline Jenkyna

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2019, 03:59:36 PM »

There is also the elephant in the room. That is, the city in the sky.

Indeed, the city of Eidolin is something akin to technomagic, and technomagic lies at the core of what ShadowWorld is. In a way you could look at it as a direct link to the deep past of Kulthea and it's lost civilizations that possessed unparalleled ability to fuse technology and Essænce.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: The price of skyships and air barges....
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2019, 09:36:30 AM »
I'm not sure it is adequate for the general population. It might be adequate for Player Characters, who are exceptional individuals, but not for your average citizen of Sel-Kai city or Haalkitaine.regulated).
While I do subscribe to the opinion that PCs have to be somewhat special, more than your average individual of whatever world/game you are in/playing, I also subscribe to the idea that PCs and NPCs are made roughly the same. The big difference being that, for me, the PCs get stuff like Talents and somewhat higher base attributes as well as 'Luck Points' or something like that to set them apart/above. But, other than that, they should be made the same so that you can have a frame of reference, i.e. PCs are X amount above the commoners and Y below the epic NPCs. So, all those 'Rural', 'Urban', 'Hill' and other background templates apply to everyone from such a background. At least, that is the way I look at it. YMMV.
I don't think I ever read of any nation of Kulthea diverging from the typical model of: An Upper-Class being a small percentage of the population & a Lower-Class being the vast majority of the population, with some Merchant/Middle-Class sprinkled in there.
In our own world the middle class makes up almost half of today’s society, but in a feudal society more than 90% of the people were peasants. That would mean the middle class was a much smaller percentage of the population than it is today. It’s also interesting to note that in renaissance society the middle class was below the merchant class. You had four classes: peasants, middle class, a merchant class who were rich, and nobles - who were sometimes poor.
I think that is basically what I said. Let me put this more clear than I apparently did. as I am not looking for a discussion on modern higher learning statistics verses ancient higher learning stats: I was saying that I think it was wrong to say that the lower classes of Sel-Kai were wealthy compared to other nations because the richest of them could afford to make airships. In fact, I think it is the opposite. Generally, when you have really, really wealthy individuals, the lower classes are much poorer. The college analogy (which I said that the lower classes could NOT go to) was just a throw away analogy to show the difference between the wealthy and poor, how the wealthy had access to more tools than the poor.

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One of my favorite ShadowWorld supplements from old ICE was the one with the magical college on the hidden isle. That’s a place where magic likely would be much more commonplace. No idea if Terry considers that one canon.
I like that one too. I think it makes a good plot device, a place the PCs have to find and somehow gain entrance to in order to learn or get something important.
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This is really up to the GM & Players imo. I see ShadowWorld as high magic in the sense that it is more like Faerûn than it is Middle Earth. I don’t see ShadowWorld's magic as being commonplace like it is in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, with modern conveniences being replaced by magic, and usually for the better.  The amount of magic you see in Kulthea each week is likely to be based on your role in society. The average farmer would probably never see magic at any point in their life, but a Loremaster could see it daily. An ordinary person living in a city might see it every so often, but it would be a noteworthy event.

I also tend towards Dragons being legends that no common folk believe still exist, and the civilization of the K’ta’viir being so far lost in the past that only a select few like the Loremasters or the Jerak Ahrenreth know they were a real thing 100,000+ years ago. It’s not that the players will never encounter these realities, but in my mind 1st level PCs aren’t wise to the secrets of the world and must grow into that knowledge.
I go somewhere between those extremes. I do think that a farmer would see magic on a semi-regular basis because to think that they wouldn't use nature magic to some degree or another in a world of magic, is like saying don't use pesticides now. (Yes, I know there are problems with pesticides, but that only reinforces my point as there are generally no health side-effect on a druid or nature cleric using their magic to help the plants grow, so why not? We still use the dangerous chemicals these days and we know they are dangerous.

As for monsters, I go with the encounter odds and general 'frequency' (a term used by D&D) to determine how common the knowledge is, along with the sheer power level of the creature in question. A dragon would certainly leave more of a lasting impression that a few orcs, I assume. How accurate that information is, well, that's a whole other matter entirely.
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I do think Kulthea has three major limitations on the free exercise of magical power.

Flowstorms can be triggered by runaway magic, which makes problematic to cast high level spells.

Groups like the Jerak Ahrenreth seek to kill or subvert powerful spellcasters. If you have power you probably don’t display it openly. By the time you have that sort of power you likely know about these sorts of groups.

Portals to the ash lairs or the pales can open randomly, and magic running wild can sometimes serve as a catalyst. Having a demon from beyond the Pale demon step though a portal into your living room at dinner time is usually a downer; especially if he then tries to sell you aluminum siding.
I don't know about the Jerak Ahrenreth hunting down spellcaster, that bit of information has never cropped up in anything I read about them. Not saying it isn't there, just I don't remember reading about it. But, even if that was the case, the world (even just the half they operate within) is big and there are tons of cultures and settlements, so they would miss far too much for it to really make an impact. I don't think they would bother, really, because it would be a huge expenditure of resources. Except, if during the course of another mission they encounter a burgeoning spellcaster that they think might be dangerous. In that case, they might take the effort to deal with them, but even then it is still a risky business because they don't know who else that might upset and put on their trail. They seem to be fairly smart operators and such folk don't just kill willy-nilly as it tends to draw a lot of attention - even in a world such as Kulthea.

The other two reasons sound more like reasons to have more spellcasters - particularly the third one, because I would want tons of people who could deal with the demon so it doesn't kill everyone, or worse. The flowstorms just help make sure there is lots of essaence everywhere in and around everything, so everything is magic. That sounds more like a reason to have more magic-users than less to me.

Of course, all of this is far off the OP about the cost of airships... ;-)
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.