Author Topic: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World  (Read 4875 times)

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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« on: November 10, 2019, 07:13:01 AM »
Feel free to copy comments from the other thread here. Begin.
Terry K. Amthor
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 07:53:45 AM »
Thanks !

Quoting the off-topic posts in the other thread now (hope I don't forget anything significant...)

That would be really useful if you are willing to share - I've been considering doing something like that myself, listing names with cultures.

I have no objections, but I'm not close to done at this point. It's also really up to ICE since it's their IP in the file. I could always post it, and they can decide to approve it or not.

I did notice a pronounced gender bias in the new rule books as well. http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18003.msg217393#msg217393

I think a lot of names in the examples come from actual characters in people's games, so they will tend to have the bias of your gaming group. I did actually go through and change them so they are about 50-50. Many of the female names coming from PCs in our group and not Matt's. :)


I can't really comment on the RMU rules, or books. I tend to think in the game gender should be an RP choice and not a mechanics thing. In early D&D games we threw out the gender nerf for females almost immediately.

With that said, in my own games I tend to assume two things even though they aren't formally written anywhere.

A) Effective contraception exists.
B) Those priestesses of Eissa have a 'Midwife's Law' spell list that drastically reduces rates of death in childbirth, and they basically give the service away to expecting mothers for a token donation. In places like Lankan though you wouldn't find Priestesses of Eissa.

From what I've read childbirth was pretty brutal for women in feudal times because those things didn't exist, so in my games they exist and women make up a large portion of the skilled workforce.

In creative writing I think it's more complex. I expect writers will write what moves them, and not sweat percentages of this or that group. Trying to force them to abide by some arbitrary social rule might cripple their inspiration, and that's a bad thing in my book. Er, no pun intended.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2019, 07:54:33 AM »
Another thing that would be useful in a future book is some reference material on Lugroki, Murlogi, and Trogli names and languages. I haven't gotten to the old ICE books yet, but so far in the new books I haven't seen much specific to them outside of the Master Atlas and references to the Ash Lairs.

That is something I would love to see another author tackle, with a little guidance. Any takers?
My personal issue with tackling that kind of work is that, after having read a bit on the subject, you need a solid background in linguistics to be able to create a language, as it is far more than a collection of similar-sounding words. I'd rather leave that to people who know what they are doing (or to a software that knows what it is doing, if the people developing the software knew what they were doing...)

As for the gender issue that Jenkyna raised, it is indeed something that is often missing in cultural summaries, something that is in my opinion quite important. What is the place of women in society for a given culture ? Are there any occupations that are strictly gender-specific ? If one takes a gender-specific occupation, are they considered as that gender by society at large ? Regardless of occupation, is there a gender bias in positions of power, and is this bias, if any, different for different power structures (military, economical, religious...) ? And why is the culture that way ?

Granted, there is scattered information that can give you some insight in how it works (off the top of my head, I remember something on that topic in the description of the Lankanôk in Emer 2, and Rhakhaan seems to have a pretty strong gender bias when you read Haalkitaine), but that information is neither systematic nor straightforward, and I think it could be.

Acceptance of minorities (the Shadow World is very multi-ethnic and multi-racial) is another useful societal topic that can fuel story ideas, but very little of that appears in cultural descriptions, except, once again, as ancillary information (Stroane and elves in Emer 1, Lankan and... about everyone else in Emer 2, Rhakhaan and elves in Haalkitaine, Rhakhaan and gay people - at least for noble men - in Haalkitaine...).

Additionally, going into such details in a more systematic way can highlight a setting-wide bias and thus provides the opportunity to explain this bias and how it can be circumvented for people who are sensitive to such topics... or highlight the fact that the setting is NOT biased and provide the opportunity to explain just that and how it differs from our own world (medieval or modern).

More generally, I think delving deeper into societal description would be a good use of page space, especially when such description can be used as fuel for plots - bias in cultures provide easy motivations for antagonists, and plot ideas that reinforce the idea that "where it all happens" is not Ye Olde Generic European Medieval Fantasy Setting. It also provides interesting ideas for cultural clashes between PCs of different origins (beyond Sarnak vs everyone else 8)).

[note that, in a similar way, delving deeper into economics and trade would provide a greater sense of overall consistency and, once again, plot seeds - after all, crime follows the money wherever it is].

Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 07:54:57 AM »
Gygax's D&D contained the radical concept that the girl could be the knight in shining armor who slays the dragon. It's probably pretty hard to reconcile that with the realities of feudal life for women. Of course for Gygax it was pretty simple, his daughter wanted to play his game and he didn't sweat the details. It was also pretty multi-ethnic in the sense of all these fantasy races, and they aren't all at each others throats.

The original Dragonlance novels really embraced that idea. You have Laurana and Kitara as generals leading armies. You had humans, dwarves, elves and even a guy with a pretty substantial disability all working together to save the world.

Post-D&D RPG's in general have tried to embody those ideals, but they all sort of gloss over the details of how it works in practice.

In the case of women you have to have some sort of support structure that gives them control over their monthly cycles, or their lives end up dominated by them. We do see some references to this in ShadowWorld, elves don't conceive easily, at the same time though humans are still just as fecund as they are here.

It's harder for me to comment on ethnicity beyond there needing to a basis for cooperation as opposed to competition. The enemy of my enemy and such.

ShadowWorld can be a pretty dark place too, and there are some distinct examples of racism with underlying causality in the current works.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 07:55:40 AM »
Gygax's D&D contained the radical concept that the girl could be the knight in shining armor who slays the dragon. It's probably pretty hard to reconcile that with the realities of feudal life for women. Of course for Gygax it was pretty simple, his daughter wanted to play his game and he didn't sweat the details. It was also pretty multi-ethnic in the sense of all these fantasy races, and they aren't all at each others throats.

The original Dragonlance novels really embraced that idea. You have Laurana and Kitara as generals leading armies. You had humans, dwarves, elves and even a guy with a pretty substantial disability all working together to save the world.

Post-D&D RPG's in general have tried to embody those ideals, but they all sort of gloss over the details of how it works in practice.
Not only that, but it does not provide any significant information on how people actually react. Say you have a party of five well-armed individuals, some obviously magically capable. One thing that you would like to know is how they are perceived in typical social environments. Another is how they are perceived in the same social environments if they are all women (or if most of them are).

It's pretty clear in Sarnak, for instance, where any citizen will try to address women first and disregard men. It's not as clear in most other places - patriarchy, yes, but how obvious, how severe and how deep ? I would guess that things would be very different in, say, Aquitar, Haalkitaine, Kenezan and Varnost. They would also be different in the surrounding rural areas (Varnost perhaps excepted). But this is essential cultural information that is often forgotten or glossed over.

In the case of women you have to have some sort of support structure that gives them control over their monthly cycles, or their lives end up dominated by them. We do see some references to this in ShadowWorld, elves don't conceive easily, at the same time though humans are still just as fecund as they are here.
There is probably more than that, if only because of the abundance of tales mentioning casual infidelity. Sure, there are "accidents" and it means that contraceptive means are not all 100% reliable, but there must be some, otherwise the lineages of Rhakhaan would be the laughingstock of the world :)
And I guess that, as is often the case, more reliable means are correspondingly more expensive.

Is there more, though ? I was toying with the idea that elven women would have some conscious control over their fertility (once again, not necessarily 100% reliable), but it could be extended to non-elven races. After all, most, if not all, shadow world races are genetically engineered. It would not be unbelievable that they were designed with fertility control features. And while short-lived races would likely have forgotten all about it (or subconsciously switched the control off to offset a high mortality rate), elves would likely still have some knowledge of it.

It's harder for me to comment on ethnicity beyond there needing to a basis for cooperation as opposed to competition. The enemy of my enemy and such.

ShadowWorld can be a pretty dark place too, and there are some distinct examples of racism with underlying causality in the current works.
Racism does exist - my point is rather that there is very little information on how widespread and how focused it is, except is specific places (Stroane, at least part of Rhakhaan...). I would assume that trade hubs such as Sel-Kai and Kaitaine would be less race-biased and more social class-biased, but is it true ? And what about Lethys, a large trade hub with elven influence but also deeply Rhakhaani ? What about Ardania ? What happens when your multiracial, multicultural, multi-gendered, LGBTQ-inclusive adventuring party arrives in those places ? Who gets preferential treatment at the inn ? Who is mistaken for a slave or a servant ? Who is avoided by the commoners with half-hidden warding signs against evil ? Who gets singled out by local members of the opposite gender eager for a little exoticism ? Who draws the suspicion from the watch merely for being there, or is contacted by the criminal underground because of their skin color or ear shape ?

Not only is the information useful to better understand and play out the corresponding culture, but it has a side benefit that is important in my opinion: it puts a bit of the spotlight on aspects of the game that affect the characters beyond their technical features. It invites GMs and players to care about those aspects - to care about the setting.

Offline Malim

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2019, 05:47:35 PM »
I can only say we play with racism.
The Duranaki is surely racist towards especially the Myri as an example.

And ofc in a "old" world setup women is what women was at that age.

And playing a female and having a menstruation cycle.. We got blood stop herbs for that! ( joke )
That being said we have had female players in our party, we have never played "cross sex" and the monthly thing never came up tbh other if the female player roleplayed it.

And why is there a thread for racism and sexism? What brought that forth?
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 08:32:49 PM »

And playing a female and having a menstruation cycle.. We got blood stop herbs for that! ( joke )
That being said we have had female players in our party, we have never played "cross sex" and the monthly thing never came up tbh other if the female player roleplayed it.

For clarification, when I said that things like midwifery spells and contraception exist in my own settings I don't mean players are expected to roleplay them. I mean my setting assumes the existence of these things as an explanation for how women can hold equal status to men in the trades, politics, or war.

In European feudal society women learned trades in order to help their husband run his shop or farm. They rarely mastered them because child production consumed their lives, and they tended to have short lives due to lack of medical procedure to deal with even simple problems that arose during labor. Women hold their own in careers in the modern world because they can time their pregnancies, limit the total number of kids they have, and it's rare to die in labor in the first world.

All I was really getting at is that I don't hand-wave that reality away, so an explanation is there if and when needed.

Kind of an aside, but a woman I know once asked her grandma "how on earth did you have 13 kids?" Grandma's answer? "We didn't have TV back then."


And why is there a thread for racism and sexism? What brought that forth?


It's a pretty fair topic as long as the debate doesn't get out of hand. I've seen a fair number of youtube videos lately addressing how to approach controversial or touchy subjects in games. It can be an issue when you have players with diverse backgrounds.

There has also been some good effort made by scholarly groups like Shaversity to try and reconcile fantasy tropes from RPGs / novels with Feudal reality. I think as players and GMs got older the hobby grew to encompass more realism.

Haalkitaine contains some distinct racial tensions, which may be what brought on the current topic. I kind of felt like it was a natural segue from the release of the new book.

Terry doesn't exactly shy away from potentially controversial material in his works either.

Offline jdale

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 12:22:25 AM »
I will say, I think racism is a pretty interesting theme to explore in a game setting where it can be focused on fantasy races and completely separated from real-world races. We have had some really interesting roleplay in our LARP with certain races that are distrusted because (in one case) they have an actual tradition of working with demons and (in a different case) their origins were mysterious and many people believed they had demonic or fae influence. You can go into those things with everyone knowing in advance what race they are picking and what it means; if you don't want to experience it, there are plenty of other races to choose. On the other hand, most players, whether in LARP or tabletop, play their own gender, and that means sexism is directed just as much at the player as at the character, and it's not something they are volunteering to subject themselves to. That's an entirely different matter. I prefer a mixed player group and as such, sexism, realistic or not, is easier to leave out.

I assume that even regular type magical healing makes a difference for infant mortality and mortality during childbirth. Birth rates tend to drop when infant mortality drops, so that has an impact too.

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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 12:59:49 AM »

I assume that even regular type magical healing makes a difference for infant mortality and mortality during childbirth. Birth rates tend to drop when infant mortality drops, so that has an impact too.



It would, and the standard lists make total sense for things like arterial tears or a fractured pelvis, and a lay healer could potentially perform a c-section if needed. Some really odd things can happen during pregnancy / labor, like life threatening BP spikes or drops, or gestational diabetes. Nowadays they wallop you with drugs that correct things, but before they had those you probably died. Plus you have the more well known ones like breach births, and possibly needing to turn the baby in advance of the birth. That's why I treat the Sisters as having specialized magic. Again, I've never actually created a spell list for this, it's just a setting detail that doesn't really impact PCs.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 09:26:52 AM »
On the other hand, most players, whether in LARP or tabletop, play their own gender, and that means sexism is directed just as much at the player as at the character, and it's not something they are volunteering to subject themselves to. That's an entirely different matter. I prefer a mixed player group and as such, sexism, realistic or not, is easier to leave out.
That is an interesting point, especially because I have a significantly different experience - most of the people I play or played with (for tabletop RPGs only) would play male or female character without a hitch, even if some prefer to play one gender over the other. It is even more interesting when you do have players of both genders at the table, because it tends to tone the more outrageous stereotypes down and a number of real-life issues that tend to be conveniently ignored or glossed over in RPGs might be adressed.

My quote about the multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-gendered... party was not a figure of speech. It is important, I think, to know how local people react to those who are obviously different, and how they talk about those who are different when they think it is safe to talk. And it is important not only to show how things are, but to show it in a way that players can relate with without feeling personally threatened or belittled. And you don't get that by sweeping the topic under the carpet - or by running a setting where NPCs react to the different character as if nothing was amiss... even though they clearly are blatant with their -ism otherwise.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 09:28:55 AM »
And why is there a thread for racism and sexism? What brought that forth?
It was originally an off-topic part of another thread. Terry mentioned that the discussion was interesting but off-topic, and I asked if a mod could split the thread. He created a dedicated thread for it and I copied the relevant posts here.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 09:38:56 AM »
I will say, I think racism is a pretty interesting theme to explore in a game setting where it can be focused on fantasy races and completely separated from real-world races. We have had some really interesting roleplay in our LARP with certain races that are distrusted because (in one case) they have an actual tradition of working with demons and (in a different case) their origins were mysterious and many people believed they had demonic or fae influence. You can go into those things with everyone knowing in advance what race they are picking and what it means; if you don't want to experience it, there are plenty of other races to choose.
Those are extreme, and fairly obvious cases (similar to the Quaidu, in a way). But when you look at Rhakhaan, for instance, there is an ugly bias against elves - even though the Duke of Prevan is married to one - and a less obvious, but as deeply ingrained bias against Jameri - the Laan/Zori having a near-monopoly on the upper social class, which translates as implicit racism (if you're not a Laan, you're a commoner unless proved otherwise; conversely, if you're a Laan, you would likely be allowed a bit more leeway, on the off-chance that you are related to nobility). And I wonder if the anti-elven bias carries over to visiting Iylari when they are wealthy and as stuck-up as the Laan are...

And, in my opinion, it would be better to have those points stated explicitly in the cultural summaries. It is easier to ignore something that is explicitly defined when it makes you uncomfortable (and, as a GM, it gives you a forewarning about possibly having to discuss things with your players). Additionally, since such things need to be put into context (why is there a bias against elves in Rhakhaan ?), it helps bridging the past of the culture with its present, enhancing the sense of overall consistency.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2019, 11:51:52 AM »
I actually built quite a bit of this stuff into the setting I use (and which was developed in the 1990s when this stuff wasn't often discussed). I had specific culture write-ups for players outlining the things they might encounter based on their origin (and I had players roll for origin as part of character creation, so parties tended to be diverse almost automatically).

Based on that experience I agree with MisterK's point about having such things explicitly defined. I also gave these biases roots in the setting's history (the Cataclysm that ended the old ways and started the world on its new path was brought on by a rogue mage who happened to be an elf, explaining the bias against elves found in many regions, for example). My games in this setting tended to last for extended periods (the average level when play stopped was usually around 15-20, with more than one party), and players always said having that level of background helped sustain the campaign and interest in characters. And each party had at least one or two female players.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 12:44:24 PM »
On the other hand, most players, whether in LARP or tabletop, play their own gender, and that means sexism is directed just as much at the player as at the character, and it's not something they are volunteering to subject themselves to. That's an entirely different matter. I prefer a mixed player group and as such, sexism, realistic or not, is easier to leave out.
That is an interesting point, especially because I have a significantly different experience - most of the people I play or played with (for tabletop RPGs only) would play male or female character without a hitch, even if some prefer to play one gender over the other. It is even more interesting when you do have players of both genders at the table, because it tends to tone the more outrageous stereotypes down and a number of real-life issues that tend to be conveniently ignored or glossed over in RPGs might be adressed.

That's great if it works for you. At least one of the people in our group has had issues with male players playing offensively bad stereotypes of women and doesn't take it well. It's not something we've done. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it if a player wants to explore a different gender, after all roleplaying is about playing a role that is different from yourself, but on the other hand I don't think it's great if a female player feels their only choices are playing a character who is unlike themself in that regard or subjecting themself to sexism. That also depends on the group though. Some people may enjoy that challenge especially in a setting where they can deal with it by the application of immediate violence....

Quote
My quote about the multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-gendered... party was not a figure of speech. It is important, I think, to know how local people react to those who are obviously different, and how they talk about those who are different when they think it is safe to talk. And it is important not only to show how things are, but to show it in a way that players can relate with without feeling personally threatened or belittled. And you don't get that by sweeping the topic under the carpet - or by running a setting where NPCs react to the different character as if nothing was amiss... even though they clearly are blatant with their -ism otherwise.

I don't disagree. Whatever the expectations are, it's useful to set them out.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2019, 10:06:10 PM »
I rather think that unless it is very critical to the world concept, this is an area best kept vaguely defined. Some indications of prejudices, sure, but different groups are going to have different desires to explore issues of discrimination and different tolerances for them.

I would also note that the original Rolemaster Companion contained a Midwifery list (Closed Channeling), so Jenkyna isn't the only one to have have that idea. (It also includes a section on Childbirth and Sibling Generation that allows you to roll for childbirth complications.)
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2019, 08:03:51 AM »
I rather think that unless it is very critical to the world concept, this is an area best kept vaguely defined. Some indications of prejudices, sure, but different groups are going to have different desires to explore issues of discrimination and different tolerances for them.
Obviously, different people will react differently. But I still believe it is best to both explain clearly what hypotheses the default setting uses (and the consequences of those hypotheses), and what changes you have to wrok into the setting if you change those hypotheses.
Say, for instance, a bias against women. It is present in Rhakhaan, and it has significant impact on several societal issues, notably the lineage (patrilineage provides many more opportunities to play with bastards) and order of succession. It is completely OK if you would rather play in a different Rhakhaan where no such bias exist, but you have to be aware of what you will have to change to keep the setting internally consistent. Jenkyna is right in saying that there is a bias against women as long as the child-bearing, child-bringing and child-rearing aspects are thrust upon them exclusively. Saying that women and men are equal in society just does not work if you do not change the way society works to make it possible (and even nowadays we are not there yet).
In a similar way, the racial bias in Rhakhaan is the foundation of nobility and has a deep historical root (Zori reacting negatively to the migration of Shay people into Jaiman and, instead of warring against them, trying their best to ensure that the Zori people would always be on top). The racial bias of Duranaki against... pretty much everyone else, but especially Myri shapes their whole society, to the point that anyone who suggest a change in the laws would be opposed by a large part of the population (and once again, I think our own western societies can relate).
If you want to keep the setting as it is, you must be acutely aware of the cultural biases so that you know how they affect society. Then, you can discuss with the other players to see if they are comfortable with that, if they want it downplayed (OK, it exists, but let's not talk about it too much), or if they want to change it... and how.

I don't believe that sweeping a problem under the carpet makes it better. Such things have a way to creep up at the most inopportune moment, so it's best to know about them and be clear about what you want to do with them.

Offline metallion

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2019, 01:13:18 PM »
I rather think that unless it is very critical to the world concept, this is an area best kept vaguely defined. Some indications of prejudices, sure, but different groups are going to have different desires to explore issues of discrimination and different tolerances for them.

It's very critical to the world concept.  If you're going to talk about heterosexism, you have to talk about sexism, and Kulthea is strongly rooted in talking about heterosexism.  Racial issues are also woven throughout the game and across the globe, from Lankan/Pochanti to Elves in Niev to Laan/Shay relations to Erlin in Rhakhaan to...

it's in there.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2019, 07:09:06 AM »
I rather think that unless it is very critical to the world concept, this is an area best kept vaguely defined. Some indications of prejudices, sure, but different groups are going to have different desires to explore issues of discrimination and different tolerances for them.

It's very critical to the world concept.  If you're going to talk about heterosexism, you have to talk about sexism, and Kulthea is strongly rooted in talking about heterosexism.  Racial issues are also woven throughout the game and across the globe, from Lankan/Pochanti to Elves in Niev to Laan/Shay relations to Erlin in Rhakhaan to...

it's in there.
Not to mention Iylari almost everywhere. After all, Atlas II explicitly states that "while they consider themselves inherently superior to all other races, the Loari are certainly not above trading with them.", which is racism any way you twist it. It might not be violent racism, but nothing smacks more of supremacism than looking down at other races as "lesser beings". I guess that imperial britain (minus most of the military imperialism) would be a fairly good analogy, especially in the way the Loari treat the less civilised races (such as the Shuluri they trade with in Malqanar, or the Shay in Rulaash). And if the analogy is accurate, then it certainly is a key tenet of the setting.

I can understand that it makes some people uneasy (though I wonder how they can play in any published fantasy settings since all of them are, explicitly or implicitly, quite plagued with one or more -ism, inherited from either traditional fantasy writing or our real-life medieval examples, european, asian or otherwise). But, in my opinion, it is all the more important to be very clear about it and be explicit about the societal consequences of those biases - after all, if someone wants to remove the offending -ism, they have to care about the corresponding societal impacts as well.

Offline metallion

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2019, 03:34:30 PM »
Not to mention Iylari almost everywhere. After all, Atlas II explicitly states that "while they consider themselves inherently superior to all other races, the Loari are certainly not above trading with them.", which is racism any way you twist it. It might not be violent racism, but nothing smacks more of supremacism than looking down at other races as "lesser beings". I guess that imperial britain (minus most of the military imperialism) would be a fairly good analogy, especially in the way the Loari treat the less civilised races (such as the Shuluri they trade with in Malqanar, or the Shay in Rulaash). And if the analogy is accurate, then it certainly is a key tenet of the setting.

I can understand that it makes some people uneasy (though I wonder how they can play in any published fantasy settings since all of them are, explicitly or implicitly, quite plagued with one or more -ism, inherited from either traditional fantasy writing or our real-life medieval examples, european, asian or otherwise). But, in my opinion, it is all the more important to be very clear about it and be explicit about the societal consequences of those biases - after all, if someone wants to remove the offending -ism, they have to care about the corresponding societal impacts as well.

Speaking of Iylar, let's talk about the founding of Namar Tol, to say nothing of its political structure.  The island was inhabited by Erlin who had a choice between displacement and entering service as the first Plebians.  The Patrician families say that the Erlini voluntarily entered service because they're moved by the obvious superiority of the Loar, but that's straight up colonialist narrative.  Not far from the Verdant Tower, an island of Erline tell a very different tale...

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Racism and Sexism in Shadow World
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2019, 08:48:13 PM »
For clarification, when I said that things like midwifery spells and contraception exist in my own settings I don't mean players are expected to roleplay them. I mean my setting assumes the existence of these things as an explanation for how women can hold equal status to men in the trades, politics, or war.
Personally, I don't think they are needed* for this to happen. In a world where a woman can walk up and go all, "Take this you jerk-faces!" Then blast them with a fireball, the fact that they menstruate and can have kids would be less inhibiting. (And lets be honest here: the reason these things 'hold women back' are not because of any mental or physical effects they cause, but because of men perceiving they effect women. Women have been kicking butt with them all through human history, without them being able to toss fireballs, call forth an earthquake or heal a room full of people with a few words.) In a world where women can do all that, and there are female-aspected gods to look up to, I believe their would be less sexism. (Not none, just way less.)

Racism, on the other hand, would be alive and well. Tribalism is huge - particularly among humans - and those people in that valley over there are just wrong/bad/must die. Add in the fact that some of those 'people' raid and eat your people and those feelings will cement. Of course, if you don't want to play that at your table, then please don't. Play in a way that is fun for you and your group. I do think that such information is good to have, though not absolutely necessary as each GM can do that themselves if they see fit. But, having it does make the GMs already hard job a little easier, and they can pick and choose what parts to keep and what to toss out, and what to alter.

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Racism does exist - my point is rather that there is very little information on how widespread and how focused it is, except is specific places (Stroane, at least part of Rhakhaan...). I would assume that trade hubs such as Sel-Kai and Kaitaine would be less race-biased and more social class-biased, but is it true ? And what about Lethys, a large trade hub with elven influence but also deeply Rhakhaani ? What about Ardania ? What happens when your multiracial, multicultural, multi-gendered, LGBTQ-inclusive adventuring party arrives in those places ? Who gets preferential treatment at the inn ? Who is mistaken for a slave or a servant ? Who is avoided by the commoners with half-hidden warding signs against evil ? Who gets singled out by local members of the opposite gender eager for a little exoticism ? Who draws the suspicion from the watch merely for being there, or is contacted by the criminal underground because of their skin color or ear shape ?
I think the way to handle the "lack of detail" in such places is to go with the results of the initial social interaction check (or, in old D&D terms: npc reaction check). How good, or bad the check result is, determines possible prejudices of the npc, and/or the locals in general. It can also help you determine that npcs background. If they end up hating elves, lets say, then they could originally be from an area/people you know that hate elves. Now, you got some depth to the npc, just from a single roll. It makes sense for the pc's fumble to be explained off as the npc just happens to one of the few who, "don't take kindly to their [the pcs] types mix'n with goodly-folk." ;-)


*I think they would exist, it is just normal societal development.
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