Author Topic: Contact with Priests Arnak/Iron Wind  (Read 4416 times)

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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Contact with Priests Arnak/Iron Wind
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2019, 05:29:14 AM »
[one problem with having priests Arnak everywhere is that RM magic is crawling with investigation spells which do not require RRs, especially in Mentalism and Channeling - and PCs are notoriously suspicious. And my take is that priests Arnak know that they are vulnerable to investigation magic, so they most often act through proxies. There are ways to hide from investigation spells, but they are used only when proxies are not convenient, which is not that often]
(quoted)

Excellent point, and I would suggest that Priests get a RR, and perhaps even their rings give them resistance to detection spells, especially 'Detect Evil.' And also there are not so many priests. There are 6 High Priests, perhaps 24-36 priests at any given time, across Jaiman, and many lackeys.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Contact with Priests Arnak/Iron Wind
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2019, 05:21:05 AM »
Quote
one problem with having priests Arnak everywhere is that RM magic is crawling with investigation spells which do not require RRs, especially in Mentalism and Channeling - and PCs are notoriously suspicious. And my take is that priests Arnak know that they are vulnerable to investigation magic, so they most often act through proxies. There are ways to hide from investigation spells, but they are used only when proxies are not convenient, which is not that often]

Excellent point, and I would suggest that Priests get a RR, and perhaps even their rings give them resistance to detection spells, especially 'Detect Evil.' And also there are not so many priests. There are 6 High Priests, perhaps 24-36 priests at any given time, across Jaiman, and many lackeys.
I must admit that I don't like to make blanket exceptions to the rules. I have enough trouble as it is with magic items that cannot be built with the alchemy rules as they are written...

It is easier to have the priests keep to the shadows and order their minions. And I am completely OK with the numbers you list above - that means both that a priest is always at the center of a web of minions who do the work for them (except when the work needs a hand that only the priest can provide), and that removing a priest is always a blow to the order.

Offline foilfodder

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Re: Contact with Priests Arnak/Iron Wind
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2020, 10:51:37 PM »
[one problem with having priests Arnak everywhere is that RM magic is crawling with investigation spells which do not require RRs, especially in Mentalism and Channeling - and PCs are notoriously suspicious. And my take is that priests Arnak know that they are vulnerable to investigation magic, so they most often act through proxies. There are ways to hide from investigation spells, but they are used only when proxies are not convenient, which is not that often]

I played a Mentalist in a Shadow World campaign years ago. Using the Presence List wasn't too helpful as Feel typing spells all allow Resistance Rolls. Our group Channeler had better luck with Detect Evil from the Lore List but still allows a RR.

If the PCs are incrediabily powerful (or lucky with open-ended rolls) :
1) Misfeel spells can counter ( in Magent and Mystic lists)
2) other powerful individuals in the vicinity may take offense to "random probing"
3) even if the PCs get a positive ID from a spell, it is their word against the accused priest. These guys usually have a lot of political clout...so if a PC points a finger at a well respected "pillar of the community", who will the town guard throw in jail?

The G.M. played the politcally entrenched priests wonderfully. We could interefere with their plans, but the job never ended because we never got a "smoking gun" to connect them to any wrong doing. Like The Three Musketeers against the Cardinal. We take out a henchman and foil a plot. Same guy is still sitting comfortably, smiling at us.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Contact with Priests Arnak/Iron Wind
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2020, 11:12:15 AM »
[one problem with having priests Arnak everywhere is that RM magic is crawling with investigation spells which do not require RRs, especially in Mentalism and Channeling - and PCs are notoriously suspicious. And my take is that priests Arnak know that they are vulnerable to investigation magic, so they most often act through proxies. There are ways to hide from investigation spells, but they are used only when proxies are not convenient, which is not that often]

I played a Mentalist in a Shadow World campaign years ago. Using the Presence List wasn't too helpful as Feel typing spells all allow Resistance Rolls. Our group Channeler had better luck with Detect Evil from the Lore List but still allows a RR.
All "P" type spells only allow RRs (and they only allow it at GM's discretion) to determine if the target is aware of the spell. It does NOT prevent the spell from working as indented. Worst case for the PC, the Priest Arnak is aware that a detection spell has been cast on them, but does not know what spell, and might not even know who the caster was (the "Feel" spells indicate that "the target must first be located by Presence of Presence True", indicating that LOS is apparently not required for the spell).
As almost all detection spells are P spells, almost all of them cannot be resisted naturally. The only regular way to foil them is to misdirect, but not all classes have access to misdirection spells and they happen to be of limited duration. Furthermore, having spells active at all times also draws attention because it triggers other detection spells.
Priests Arnak who are public figures (some of them are) *must* have that kind of protection, because their everyday role requires it. The others ? Not so much, and I would assume that (since the Priests Arnak come from various professions) that they tend to select their "public faces" from those who have suitable professions, but most of them do not need it on a daily basis - their most potent defense is to avoid attracting attention - there is nothing worse than being on the receiving end of a well-timed Mind Typing spell, and being Mind Stored is just one step away from being GPS tracked.

Quote
If the PCs are incrediabily powerful (or lucky with open-ended rolls) :
1) Misfeel spells can counter ( in Magent and Mystic lists)
2) other powerful individuals in the vicinity may take offense to "random probing"
3) even if the PCs get a positive ID from a spell, it is their word against the accused priest. These guys usually have a lot of political clout...so if a PC points a finger at a well respected "pillar of the community", who will the town guard throw in jail?
Why would they do that ? If the PCs are really willing to cross a Priest Arnak, they will certainly not try to move against them politically unless they have more powerful allies, but PCs can be driven to radical solutions and mystic-like powers can work both ways - "accidents" may happen, and Priests Arnak in a social environment cannot bring the full strength of the Orders to protect themselves physically (those Messengers are not really subtle), so a well-timed ambush or assassination helped by a few misdirection spells can both get rid of the Priest and obfuscate investigation.

And as far as I'm concerned, the Priests Arnak *know* they are vulnerable to determined people. Their best defence is to avoid being in the same place as those pesky troubleshooters and work indirectly whenever possible. I would go so far as to assume that they only work directly when they need to use their power (for subversion or corruption, for instance - there are a number of examples given in the books) and cannot trust proxies to do it.

But otherwise ? They are, as Terry put it, about 30-40 Priests for a whole continent. Micro-managing every little plot will get them nowhere, especially since there is a something as a chain of command and some of them must have support or coordination roles. Add to that the fact that they also must conduct investigation on rival parties and work to consolidate the footholds they have, and they have to intervene personally on a long-term basis when trying to corrupt a specific target... and that pretending to fulfill a public role consumes a large amount of time, and they simply don't have the time to worry about adventurers personally. After all, if they retreat to the shadows for a decade or two, the impact on their long-term plan is negligible, so why take the chance ?

Offline foilfodder

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Re: Contact with Priests Arnak/Iron Wind
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2020, 02:25:00 AM »

[one problem with having priests Arnak everywhere is that RM magic is crawling with investigation spells which do not require RRs, especially in Mentalism and Channeling - and PCs are notoriously suspicious. And my take is that priests Arnak know that they are vulnerable to investigation magic, so they most often act through proxies. There are ways to hide from investigation spells, but they are used only when proxies are not convenient, which is not that often]

I played a Mentalist in a Shadow World campaign years ago. Using the Presence List wasn't too helpful as Feel typing spells all allow Resistance Rolls. Our group Channeler had better luck with Detect Evil from the Lore List but still allows a RR.

All "P" type spells only allow RRs (and they only allow it at GM's discretion) to determine if the target is aware of the spell. It does NOT prevent the spell from working as indented. Worst case for the PC, the Priest Arnak is aware that a detection spell has been cast on them, but does not know what spell, and might not even know who the caster was (the "Feel" spells indicate that "the target must first be located by Presence of Presence True", indicating that LOS is apparently not required for the spell). As almost all detection spells are P spells, almost all of them cannot be resisted naturally.

You hit the nail on the head with “GM's discretion”. I was a player, not the GM. How many times has a GM explained to you why your character's spell didn't work mid-session?

The only regular way to foil them is to misdirect, but not all classes have access to misdirection spells and they happen to be of limited duration. Furthermore, having spells active at all times also draws attention because it triggers other detection spells.

I specifically mentioned the spell Misfeel as a possibility. Again, I was a player not the GM, so I can't give you the exact solution as to how the “suspected” Priest Arnak was protected.

Priests Arnak who are public figures (some of them are) *must* have that kind of protection, because their everyday role requires it. The others ? Not so much, and I would assume that (since the Priests Arnak come from various professions) that they tend to select their "public faces" from those who have suitable professions, but most of them do not need it on a daily basis - their most potent defense is to avoid attracting attention - there is nothing worse than being on the receiving end of a well-timed Mind Typing spell, and being Mind Stored is just one step away from being GPS tracked.

Yes, it would be suicidal for a Priest Anark to walk into say a Temple of Orhan. Either someone would detect their nature, or notice that they were protected and thus raise questions about how and why they were shielded.

The particular individual we suspected was wealthy and politically connected. Everyone loved them. You mentioned walking up and using a “well-timed” Mind Typing spell. The individual was definitely aware of our spellcasting (through GM-only-knowns means).

The local authorities “encouraged” our characters to leave the suspect alone in the after we attempted just what you suggested. The GM made it clear we would be fighting the whole city guard if we pushed that particular button again.

If the PCs are incrediabily powerful (or lucky with open-ended rolls) :
1) Misfeel spells can counter ( in Magent and Mystic lists)
2) other powerful individuals in the vicinity may take offense to "random probing"
3) even if the PCs get a positive ID from a spell, it is their word against the accused priest. These guys usually have a lot of political clout...so if a PC points a finger at a well respected "pillar of the community", who will the town guard throw in jail?

Why would they do that ? If the PCs are really willing to cross a Priest Arnak, they will certainly not try to move against them politically unless they have more powerful allies, but PCs can be driven to radical solutions and mystic-like powers can work both ways - "accidents" may happen, and Priests Arnak in a social environment cannot bring the full strength of the Orders to protect themselves physically (those Messengers are not really subtle), so a well-timed ambush or assassination helped by a few misdirection spells can both get rid of the Priest and obfuscate investigation.

Funny you should mention assassins and Heralds..... There was an attempt on our party...he was just a local thug and couldn't trace him back to anyone important. My Mentalist gave him “the works” only to find out someone else had been in his head first and pretty much cleaned-house. Might have just chalked that one up to offending the rich-boys club, but, the Herald that chased us after we actually left town kinda gave us the feeling maybe we had pushed the “right” button.

And as far as I'm concerned, the Priests Arnak *know* they are vulnerable to determined people. Their best defence is to avoid being in the same place as those pesky troubleshooters and work indirectly whenever possible. I would go so far as to assume that they only work directly when they need to use their power (for subversion or corruption, for instance - there are a number of examples given in the books) and cannot trust proxies to do it.

You are free to keep your opinion. My former GM definately had a Priest at work in the city. Whether or not it was this particular "suspect" I cannot confirm.

But otherwise ? They are, as Terry put it, about 30-40 Priests for a whole continent. Micro-managing every little plot will get them nowhere, especially since there is a something as a chain of command and some of them must have support or coordination roles. Add to that the fact that they also must conduct investigation on rival parties and work to consolidate the footholds they have, and they have to intervene personally on a long-term basis when trying to corrupt a specific target... and that pretending to fulfill a public role consumes a large amount of time, and they simply don't have the time to worry about adventurers personally. After all, if they retreat to the shadows for a decade or two, the impact on their long-term plan is negligible, so why take the chance ?

Nice short-essay. I agree. Thirty to forty Priests can get a lot done.

But you are wrong on your assumption that he was a political official. I said he was “politically entrenched,” by which I mean “connected” not “serving”.

 This fellow was only in the city for a few years. He had a lot of money to throw around which apparently made him a lot of friends in key places. He can go on his merry way in a few years having put the “right” people in power to make decisions and policies.

Offline Dr Jim

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Re: Contact with Priests Arnak/Iron Wind
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2020, 01:57:57 PM »
Would you think the Priest Arnak would necessarily know he is one? Something along the lines of he knows he is in a cult / organisation, which he thinks is one thing, but its not until he reaches the inner circle that the true identity is revealed.
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