Topic: When penalties apply

[Kristen Mork]

There are six basic maneuvers in RMSS: a moving maneuver (MM), a static maneuver (SM), an attack (OB), a spell-casting static maneuver (SCSM), a base attack roll (BAR) and an elemental attack roll (EAR).

There are five basic sources of penalties: concussion hits (Hits), power points (PPs), exhaustion points (Exh), bleeding and injuries from criticals.

If I understand correctly, the following penalties apply to the various maneuvers:
MM = Hits, Exh¹, bleeding and injuries
SM = Hits, Exh¹, bleeding and injuries
SCSM = PPs and injuries
OB = Hits, Exh² and injuries
BAR = None
EAR = ?

Exh¹ = Penalties of -5/-15/-30/-60/-100 at 25%/50%/75%/90%/100% exhaustion points spent
Exh² = Penalties of -10/-20/-30/-60/-100

Question, the first: Is this summary correct?
Question, the second: What penalties apply to EARs?
Question, the third: Has anyone tried to consolidate penalties?  Perhaps none for BARs (because the table's so funky) and Hits, PPs, Exh¹ and injuries for everything else?  This would omit any penalty for bleeding, but you're already mortally wounded, so -5/hit/rnd seems like pouring salt in the wound.

[Ecthelion]

We had the same question once in our group but did not find a reference in the rules for all of the above cases. Personally I'd go for the following handling:
MM = Hits, Exh, bleeding and injuries
SM = Hits, Exh, bleeding, injuries / 2
SCSM = PPs, injuries / 2
OB = Hits, Exh and injuries
BAR = None
EAR = Hits, Exh, injuries / 2

But that is just my personal take on the question. And I agree that penalties for bleeding could simply be removed without doing any harm. And the whole exhaustion rules could be made optional IMHO.

[Ravenheart]

My opinion:

MM = As you say
SM = Hits and Exhaustion, but I use common sense when applying injury penalties to SM's. For example broken toe hardly affects Haggling, Herb Lore, Cookery etc.
SCSM = PP's, Hits, Exhaustion and again common sense with injuries.
OB = Everything that comes to mind.
BAR = None
EAR = Hits, Exhaustion and injuries. Again, injuries to some degree. If caster is a somatic caster needing a hand that is broken, I apply the full penalty if that hand is broken. Also head injuries usually account as is.

[rdanhenry]

SCSM is a type of Static Maneuver. It has a lot of special modifiers that most SMs don't get, but all the standard modifications should apply, including injuries, etc.

Per Offensive Capabilities Table T-3.5 (RMSR, p. 95), BAR and EAR rolls get the same penalties for concussion hits and exhaustion points as does OB. I would think that any applicable injury penalties would also apply. Trying to target an elemental attack off a broken arm can't be trivial.

[VladD]

I concur with rdanhenry:
in fact I am always applying ALL the penalties wherever I can: even loss of PP to OB and such. Anything that tires, hinders physically and bothers mentally I apply when I think it is necessary. So a -15 from a broken toe wouldn't apply to a herb lore check, but I would apply it to OB, BAR, EAR and of course any MM and even a SM that takes a long time (you will be hindered forging a sword (4 days construction) with a broken toe moving back and forth between forge and anvil. To the SCSM I would always recommend taking into account ANY and ALL negative modifiers as the players will never be lenient with you on the positive mods.
But its sort of a houserule I guess when checking the rules on them.

Play fair!

[Hubbaman]

Hello! In chapter 23 in RMSS it is stated the following:
BAR - Status Bonuses/Penalties
EAR - Status Bonuses/Penalties
Both of them are also on the offensive capabilities chart, so they should also be modified by Hits and Exh.
SCSM - as far as I can see the only penalties that should apply is from the spell casting modification table. Just think how hopeless a healer that takes damage to them self would be if the damage applied to the SCSM...

[markc]

 I can say from personal experience as I have a back injury that even if I do not move it affects the way I talk to people and do things. IMHO this would be like a perminate nerve or wound appling a penalty. The same would be true of broken bones, as they took some bone from my hip to place into a new type of fusion back in the late 90's and they said it was like I broke a hip. A broken hip IIRC is one of the most painful broken bones and even that affected me for a year afterwords.
 Just some real life examples. I would like to extend those to spell casting if I could but I do not cast spells in RL so I cant give any info on that.
 
MDC

[RandalThor]

Pain from injury modifiers should affect just about everything you do, even knowledge and lore skill checks, as physical pain is also mental stress. Of course, each type of injury/damage affects us a little differently (like a burn vs. a stab), and the location of the injury will have different effects on different actions. Like the broken toe above will affect MMs greater than it would BARs and other skills that do not depend upon much movement.

[Hubbaman]

I always thought that you go into some kind of trance when you concentrate or cast a spell, so you don't care about bodily functions at that moment. But the moment you snap out of it, to cast a firebolt or something, the pain and suffering hit you and makes the aiming harder.

[markc]

I always thought that you go into some kind of trance when you concentrate or cast a spell, so you don't care about bodily functions at that moment. But the moment you snap out of it, to cast a firebolt or something, the pain and suffering hit you and makes the aiming harder.

 I am not sure this is in the rules but it can be a good Home Rule for a game world or a Talent. I do have talents that reduce the penalty that the PC feels for some tasks. It is not often taken though.


MDC

[Ecthelion]

Pain from injury modifiers should affect just about everything you do, even knowledge and lore skill checks

I basically agree, but I think that e.g. for a broken leg you will suffer more pain when moving it, while in combat or otherwise moving, compared to keeping it still while doing a lore check or a perception roll. That's why my suggestion above was to halve the penalties from injuries for action typically involving little or no movement.

[RandalThor]

Sounds like a grand idea. (Of course, the uber-gritty RMers are more likely to say double it for actions that directly involve the injured part.)

[rdanhenry]

The Spels Skill Categories, section A-1.27 in RMSR, lists "Classification: Static Maneuver and Special" for the maneuver type. "Automatic" spell casting would be the "Special" part, which leaves the SCSM as the "Static Maneuver" part, which is why I would apply all normal static maneuver rules, including the modifications for injury, unless explicitly house-ruling otherwise.

[Kristen Mork]

I can see the case for applying the generic SM modifiers to SCSMs, and I can see the case for assuming that the SCSM modifiers supersede the generic SM modifiers.  I agree with an earlier post that if Hits/Bleeding cause SCSM penalties, then Healers are toast.  So, in light of the ambiguity, I think I'll not apply penalties to SCSMs due to Hits/Exh/Bleeding.

[rdanhenry]

I can see the case for applying the generic SM modifiers to SCSMs, and I can see the case for assuming that the SCSM modifiers supersede the generic SM modifiers.  I agree with an earlier post that if Hits/Bleeding cause SCSM penalties, then Healers are toast.  So, in light of the ambiguity, I think I'll not apply penalties to SCSMs due to Hits/Exh/Bleeding.

Healers still have "automatic" casting (which is all they had when they first existed). Don't rely on overcasting and you'll be okay. And I don't think you can do subconscious overcasting, so the serious stuff is generally not going to have that as an option anyway.

Per Craig O'Brien's old rulings (see http://www.icewebring.com/errata/rolemaster-rulings/#Magic) "SCSMs are modified by the general static maneuver modifications in T-4.4, and by penalties from injuries. "

[Hubbaman]

The Spels Skill Categories, section A-1.27 in RMSR, lists "Classification: Static Maneuver and Special" for the maneuver type. "Automatic" spell casting would be the "Special" part, which leaves the SCSM as the "Static Maneuver" part, which is why I would apply all normal static maneuver rules, including the modifications for injury, unless explicitly house-ruling otherwise.

Well, in section A-1.27 it is stated:
Spell Casting Static Maneuver Roll =
1d100 (open-ended) + 50
+ caster's skill bonus for the spell's list
+ mods from the Spell Casting Modification Table T-4.6

IMO if the author thought that T-4.4 should be used for spellcasting, it would have been mentioned somewhere in the book.

[RandalThor]

Personally, I am ok with lessening the abilities of healers as I am getting sick of the "you get bashed for 38 Hits, broken arm, etc." then 5-minutes later they are just fine. By making magical healing rarer and/or less powerful, I think you encourage the players to run their characters as if the character cares whether if they get injured. Plus, it helps reinforce "down time" and the characters then move at a pace that is in keeping with the rest of the world. (If you know what I mean.) So, injury mods for all spellcasting - it is probably the biggest equalizer between high level spell users and non-spell users, also.

Basically, being hurt affects everything you do, to one degree or another.

[Kristen Mork]

The healing question boils down to how effective a Healer should be.  There seems to be two reasonable schools of thought:

1) Healers do not suffer penalties to SCSMs due to Hits/Exh/Bleeding, and perhaps even injuries.  If they were to suffer these penalties, they would be unable to heal because the first step is to take injuries onto themselves.  As a result, every SCSM would suffer from significant penalties, and the Healer would be incapacitated.
2) Healers do suffer penalties to SCSMs due to Hits/Exh/Bleeding/Injuries.  However, as long as there are no penalties to the SCSM from T-4.4, the spell can be cast without making a SCSM.  Thus, as long as a Healer is careful about spell-casting, he can put himself back together after transferring wounds.

I think I'm okay with either interpretation.

---

In terms of Randal's aversion to magical healing, this issue is a matter of taste.  It's frustrating (for the GM as well as the players) when the party needs to hole up for a week because one party member suffered a broken bone.  The ability to get back into the thick of the adventure is attractive for some.

Moreover, until you have a high-level healer, the ability to repair damage in-combat is very limited.  Thus, anyone playing a healer has relegated himself to a non-tactical role.  Some players are okay with that, but given the complexity of RM combat, it's easy to get frustrated by extended spans with nothing to do.