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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Eladan on February 02, 2022, 12:18:08 PM
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After putting aside the Summoner/Caller section of my RM2 conversion project for over a year+, I figured it was time to revisit it. Admittedly, I'm bouncing around between professions a bit (my most recent foray into the Healer/Lay Healer merge only combined the 6 healing lists into 3), but I've found that walking away and coming back later allows me look at lists and other concepts with a fresh perspective. So let's get into it!
Many of the concepts of the Summoner stem from the conversation here:
https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20200.0 (https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20200.0)
Based on these discussions, and some great mechanics brainstorming by BHanson and others, I've decided to run with the notion that the Summoner effectively "gates" creatures from another location through his summoning spells. For all intents and purposes, these are random creatures from the wild, but I actually like the implication: the Summoner can build relationships (or enmity) with his summoned creatures. Summoning a wolf has little impact on a global scale, but summoning a dragon or major demon can have lasting effects: Do these intelligent creatures resent being summoned? Do they feel like they are being abused? Will they seek revenge for this offense by some puny human?
As a result, I've settled on the notion that two lists in the Summoner's initial Base lists will be dedicated to summoning exclusively. Other lists will either augment that skill, address some other implications of summoning (such as "gating"), or perhaps be tied to the concept of a Summoner who has a connection to or understanding of beasts and other entities, albeit not in a natural way, such as the Druid/Animist concept.
Here's a summary of the basic list concepts for the starting 6 Base lists:
- Natural Summons - Allows summoning of animals and more fantastical beasts
- Planar Summons - Allows summoning of divine/infernal creatures, elementals, etc
- Circles of Summoning - Allows the creation of circles that can strengthen summons spells at the cost of time-consuming static magic circles / Also has some warding circles in there
- Circles of Travel - Allows the creation of static gates between locations, for humanoids and entities alike
- Empowerment - Sets of spells meant to augment creatures and their skills once summoned
This leaves me with at least one list to fill, and question as to what other concepts fit this brand of Summoner.
- Communing - Spell for communication with creatures, summoned of otherwise (think extracting info from demons, appealing to angelic entities, etc). This is the one I'm leaning toward.
- Research - Lore-based spells centered on understanding and/or altering creatures... not sure about this one.
- And other suggestions?
As of now, I only have Natural Summons and Circles of Summoning complete (link here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hsRXkw_7U75NKA1TFvBrLJYAyKQWBtXM/view?usp=sharing) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hsRXkw_7U75NKA1TFvBrLJYAyKQWBtXM/view?usp=sharing)). Planar Summons is almost done since it essentially uses the same mechanics as Natural Summons. For the Empowerment list, I've been mixing/matching some of the concepts from the Summoning Bond list in Channeling Companion, but still have lots of gaps. I'm open to thoughts form the brain trust on both the completed lists, as well as any direction you think would be logical in terms of where this profession should go.
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Note: Status of professions in my Conversion to RMU Project:
- Healer: Under development (3 main healing Base lists compressed)
- Astrologer: Complete / under revision
- Mystic: Complete / under revision
- Shaman: Complete / under revision
- Shapechanger (Arms version): Complete / under revision
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I think the lore aspect can mostly be handled through skills and professional bonuses. You could also fit a few lore-boosting spells on a Communing list, especially at lower levels. An entire list for summoning-related lore is probably too much, whereas communing has a lot of potential.
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You could also have a list to deal with the issues of summoning creatures for your purposes, which are not theirs. Things like healing that only works on creatures you summoned. Magical feeding of summoned creatures. Other goodies that would appeal to various summoning types. Cleansing for spirits or elementals that might feel "contaminated" by our world. Of course, the more you get into the supernatural creatures, the more it gets into world-specific stuff.
You can also have a summons-modification spell to summon a particular individual, so you could make deals with the more intelligent entities and pay for "services to be rendered".
Finally, you might include some banishing, to send creatures that have been summoned or which are not native to this plane, back whence they came. He who can summon can usually also banish.
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I also think Communing is the way to go. It also has applications beyond summoned creatures, so could be quite a good utility list even when you don't have a creature out.
I agree with Rdan though: there should be some Banishing spells on some of those lists, for when things go wrong (and they too also have application beyond your own summons, so maybe the Banishing spells might give caster a bonus to Banishing creatures he himself has summoned).
Healing/feeding summons is a good idea too, and would I think actually fit under the wider umbrella of 'communing'.
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>You can also have a summons-modification spell to summon a particular individual, so you could make deals with the more intelligent entities and pay for "services to be rendered".
On that note, it might make sense to have a spell to memorize a signature/identity for specific known entities you want to be able to recall, with the maximum number of memorized entities equal to your level. That follows a common structure and provides a place for growth. And if one of those entities is truly destroyed, it cost you something too.
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All fantastic ideas. So overall:
- 6th list - I agree that Communing seems to be the most likely candidate to fill the 6th spell list slot. One of the principles of RM2, especially with demonic summoning, was that while the summoned entity could understand you, communication and gaining information required another spell. I like this mechanic.
- 7th list - I think a healing/feeding list that's limited to the summoned creatures would be good as well. A list themed as "Summoning Boon" could establish that notion of give and take between the entities. I'm working on making some sort of defined system for the notion of taint and corruption for use with my Shaman class and the spirits they summon, so this could could connect to that.
Could the summoning spells as they are currently written simply include banishing as part of the spell? Is there a need for a whole separate list or spell set for that? I see two possible mechanics:
- Add the language for banishing to the existing summoning spells. This is actually already in the language for Demonic Summons spells in RMU Beta.
- Allow casters to perform Spell Mastery rolls to use summoning spells to banish. Might be an easier, simpler mechanic.
Hoping to have the Planar Summons list up in the next day or so. Very curious for feedback on that front.
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If the spell is holding the entity present and it will disappear back to its origin at the conclusion of the spell, it stands to reason that you ought to be able to conclude the spell early. And also that it is an "active spell" and therefore can be dispelled. This interpretation makes more sense than imagining the spell summons the creature initially and then banishes it at the end, in which case dispelling it midway would trap the creature here permanently (unless it found its way home). Dispel definitely shouldn't let you change a temporary spell into a permanent one. (You could decide summonings are harder to banish, but I don't think it's necessary.)
In RMU, in order to cancel your own spell, you must still be within the original casting range of the spell, and you must concentrate for one round on canceling the spell. It's not a free action.
Banishing a creature that someone else summoned is another matter entirely.
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Yes, and generally speaking, the Banish spells are needed. They tend to be separate spells from the summoning; and the Banish spells tend to come just before the equivalent summoning spell on the lists (you don't want to summon anything you can't banish!). See for example the Evil Channeling, Demonic Summons list.
Having separate banishing and summoning spells will take up many of the slots on the list. Since there are 6 types of demons (I-VI), as well as possibly summoning a demon beyond the pale at level 50, that means these spells would take up about half the list (12 or 13 out of 25 spells). Is that too much?
Note too it would be relatively easy to offer extra or alternative summoning lists too. I wouldn't feel especially bound by the 6-list collection for each class. Having 7 or 8 is not too bad, since it gives the player more choice (he or she would just have to select which 6 are his/her base out of the 7 or 8 ).
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I wouldn't feel especially bound by the 6-list collection for each class. Having 7 or 8 is not too bad, since it gives the player more choice (he or she would just have to select which 6 are his/her base out of the 7 or 8 )
I agree with you completely on that concept; most of the professions I'm revamping I'm trying to give between 7-9 lists so there's diversity. Long term, there I'll be making alternative lists for the core classes.
Having separate banishing and summoning spells will take up many of the slots on the list... Is that too much?
I personally think it is too much. I've tried to address this by making the summoning spelling on my lists active spells, meaning that the magic summoning them is an active link that, in theory, could be dispelled by other means. Under my current mechanics, and as Jdale explained in the RMU framework, in order to "banish" a creature the caster has summoned, he simply has to spend a round canceling the spell. The question then becomes what is required to banish someone else's summons...
Part of my concept in combining the main summoning spells into two lists was to give some more flexibility to the class. There have been several comments that having 3-4 summoning lists don't add a great deal of firepower to the profession, and I don't disagree. However, that means that my Natural Summons and Planar Summons lists are pretty packed and don't have, in my opinion, a lot of fat able to be cut.
Would the solution then be to create a list dedicated to Banishment/Containment? I could possibly move the Circle of Warding spells over to it from the Planar Summons list, which would free up some space on that list as well for some other concepts related to extraplanar creatures. As I'm typing this, I think that might be the way to go.
Here are first 3 updated lists, which now includes Planar Summons. Again, maybe the solution is another list that the Summoner can choose to invest in but isn't required for the class.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hsRXkw_7U75NKA1TFvBrLJYAyKQWBtXM/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hsRXkw_7U75NKA1TFvBrLJYAyKQWBtXM/view?usp=sharing)
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One more comment on the concept of build/list diversity: it is particularly important with a profession like the Summoner. A big influence for me is the Summoner/Caller from the Final Fantasy series. In that series, the profession had a lot of diversity and utility. Through their summons, they were big damage dealers, had some healing and defensive capabilities, and some out of combat utility, but all this came at the cost of spells that were costly in terms of time and power points (MP). I think the Summoner is moving in that direction but obviously needs tweaking, and build diversity ensures that this versatility comes at the price of investment.
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Personally, I would say it is ok to divide up the summons list and add in banishing spells on them, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the existing lists do mix together rather diffierent creatures. Your extraplanar list for example could be used to summon Elementals, Demons, and Angels. Realistically, most summoners are going to choose one or the other: someone who worships a good god is probably not going to be summoning demons into their world. And remember, if you offer 8 or 9 lists, then a Summoner is probably only going to need one or the other (Demons or Angels), rather than both.
So I wouldn't even be opposed to having four or five summoning lists, to conform more closely to Creature Law's creature categories: Animals; Monsters; Elementals; Extraplanar (with a note that summoners of good gods tend not to want to summon demons, and summoners of Evil gods tend not to invoke Champions).
I always thought that cancelling a summoning spell would cancel a summons spell already in progress, but not banish a summoned creature already present, since it is a real entity in the physical world. Can you simply cancel it? That seems a little weird to me. That does seem to be the way it works in RMU though, as per JDale's explanation.
One possibility, if you did want to keep just a few summons lists with lots of different creatures on it, would be to add language into the summoning spells that specifies that the creature can be banished by casting the spell again and then making a Spell Mastery roll to reverse it. This would be in line with RMU's core rules about Spell Mastery and reversing spells, and also solves the problem of how you can banish someone else's summons.
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So I wouldn't even be opposed to having four or five summoning lists, to conform more closely to Creature Law's creature categories: Animals; Monsters; Elementals; Extraplanar...
That was my original intent. After some discussion in previous posts, I started to lean toward the idea that having that many might pigeon-hole the profession. However, if I was to expand it to say 3-4 summoning lists, then each Summoner would have to make a choice as to which lists in which he wants to invest. A Summoner then who wants to be able to summon every category of creature would do so at the cost of the extra lists which provide versatility. Not a bad idea, just a direction I wasn't necessarily going in anymore based on the other discussions. Certainly worth considering though from a balance perspective. That being said, I see the Summoner as more of a secular profession, using raw magical force to draw the creatures through, rather than affiliated with a particular god, but that can be very setting specific.
Another option would be to add language to the Planar Summons list that limits summoning types based on alignment. Easy enough mechanic to add and avoids complications like a lawful good Summoner enlisting the service of demons.
That does seem to be the way it works in RMU though, as per JDale's explanation.
Right... summons in RMU seem to be active effects, essentially creating a sort of magical tether between the caster and the creature for the duration of the summons. My Circle spells and my Component spells are built on that interpretation in that they enhance the tether, giving more options in the summoning.
Something to consider is if banishment spells are necessary under the RMU rules. Wouldn't a Cancel Essence spell essentially have the same effect? As you note, Hurin, couldn't Spell Mastery achieve the same effect? Not that banishment wouldn't be something a Summoner shouldn't or couldn't have in another spell list, but I'm not entirely convinced it's needed under the RMU rules.
Unless of course Banishment has some sort of special advantage over Cancel magics: Perhaps it is instantaneous or has mass effects? Again, throwing stuff at the wall here...
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Presumably it's possible to open some kind of gate which permits extraplanar entities to remain in the world indefinitely rather than only briefly under the effects of a summoning spell. Banishment would still work in that case. If you wander into a dungeon and encounter a demon or elemental there, it's probably that sort of thing rather than a creature that was summoned only for a few minutes.
That kind of opening portals for normal interplanar travel might normally be the work of rituals rather than spells (although the 50th level spell on Summons does it too, since that spell has no duration).
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One more comment on the concept of build/list diversity: it is particularly important with a profession like the Summoner. A big influence for me is the Summoner/Caller from the Final Fantasy series. In that series, the profession had a lot of diversity and utility. Through their summons, they were big damage dealers, had some healing and defensive capabilities, and some out of combat utility, but all this came at the cost of spells that were costly in terms of time and power points (MP). I think the Summoner is moving in that direction but obviously needs tweaking, and build diversity ensures that this versatility comes at the price of investment.
One of the popular sub-genres of Anime is Isekai (another world), where beings or just plain people are summoned into other realms for one reason or another. One such series is about a Japanese college student who was magically summoned to a fantasy kingdom as they needed a great hero to save the kingdom from disaster. The kingdom was poorly managed and the disaster was both economic and an impending famine. The Japanese student was exactly the kind of hero the kingdom needed -He applied free market principles to repair the economy, eliminated the wasteful bureaucracy in government, removed corrupt nobles and opened trade with neighboring nations.
Everybody assumed that a summoned hero would be a mighty warrior but a warrior would not have saved the kingdom, they needed a good leader who could think outside the box.
Many of the Isekai genre are based off of MMORPGs and use online gaming standards as a measure of skills and rank. Examples would be Overlord and Demon Lord, Retry!, which is more a parody. Demon Lord, Retry! has a main character summoned to a fantasy world in the form of his super-high level MMO persona. The main character has no idea why he was summoned but sets out to fix the many problems he sees in the kingdom, which he looks upon as incompetent and corrupt, its church included.
In context to summoning, I'd like to see a criteria-based form of summoning so that instead of summoning a mighty warrior or powerful being they get the person they actually need to solve their problems, such as Chinese Taoist mystic, Zhuge Liang, who was also a brilliant military tactician.
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I just noticed this text at the end of the spell Elemental Control I on Closed Essence: Gate Mastery:
A controlled elemental may be commanded to return to its origin; this will take the elemental two rounds. Thus, this spell doubles as a means of banishing elementals.
If you go that route with the other types of control spells, you don't need specific Banishing spells anymore.
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That presumes the target is capable of returning to their origin. It's reasonable to expect that for a demon, but for example in Vladimir's examples of summoning people from other worlds, they wouldn't necessarily have that ability.
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That presumes the target is capable of returning to their origin. It's reasonable to expect that for a demon, but for example in Vladimir's examples of summoning people from other worlds, they wouldn't necessarily have that ability.
In the Isekai genre, a major part of the plot is the main characters finding a way to get home. In one of my favorite series, The Dungeon of Black Company the story parodies MMOs as well as Japanese corporate society by having the hero transported into the bottom level of a corporation that clears dungeons, where the workers slave away mining in the depths and supervisors berate them for failing to meet weekly goals. Workers are bullied through peer pressure to sacrifice their personal lives for the good of their employers and the hero bends a lot of rules and shamelessly exploits his fellow employees to get home, where he lived easy life due to brilliant investments. He's been summoned for a purpose but doesn't care -None of the people in the fantasy world deserve to be saved, they are all conniving jerks in the end and they know it.
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That presumes the target is capable of returning to their origin. It's reasonable to expect that for a demon, but for example in Vladimir's examples of summoning people from other worlds, they wouldn't necessarily have that ability.
Do elementals have this ability in RMU?
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It's implied but not stated. But for that matter, it doesn't say that demons have the ability to go home either (or that they don't). Outside of summoning spells, it's really more a matter for narrative and worldbuilding.
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There are many schools of thought concerning summoning:
1) The caster merely opens a door to let the summoned through.
This would be a persistent effect, where the summoning is permanent until another door is opened for the summoned to leave or be banished.
2) The caster allows the summoned through the door upon certain conditions, such as concentration or volition.
In this example, the summoned might be automatically sent back to its original plane due to the caster being incapacitated or killed or the caster simply dismissing them.
3) The caster expends power to open the door and has to continue expending power to keep the summoned from returning to its original plane.
This would be a more involved version than example 2. The summoned is simply sent back to their plane of origin due to the power maintaining their presence being cut off.
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"Except for a small minority with interdimensional travel abilities of their own, demons can
only come to a human world by being summoned, in which case the default case is that the demon can
only stay a number of minutes equal to its own level before it is dragged back to its own plane by cosmic
energies, or perhaps through some curse of a protective god. Various spells can allow the demon a
longer stay." -- Beta Spell Law, p. 420.
Note that it is *not the summoning spell that sends the demon home*, so there is no implication that it is held by spell in any way, so Dispel will not work during the demon's normal stay. If it is on time extended by some spell, then a Dispel of that spell would end that extension. Whether the minute/level limit starts to apply then or whether it goes immediately home is perhaps less clear. I'd probably rule the former, just for additional tension.
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Hmm. That text is still there. It's a reasonable interpretation but in that case it would be better if summons were not duration spells (although that's a clarity issue too), and it also doesn't handle other types of creatures, e.g. natural animals.
We could in principle put something about this in the section on durations, which already talks about what you can and can't dispel.
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For the purposes of this take on Summoning, I’m approaching it as summoning spells create a temporary link or wormhole from another location, pulling the creature through. Once the spell expires (or is canceled), that link is closed and the creature is pulled back “home”. At least for my understanding, this is essentially how RMU summoning works already, in which case, the need for a creature to be able to return isn’t required, as the original summoning spell does the returning by closing the link.
The metaphysics of how this actually works may vary according to setting, but that was my interpretation at least, and I’ve designed my version of the spells from that philosophy.
It does open up a lot of questions about it the nature of banishment. As I stated above, I think a Cancel spell would ultimately have the same effect. But what about if we come across a free-roaming demon on our Prime plane? In the case of demons/celestials/elementals/etc, banishing spells could be quite useful because they are used on creatures not of this plane to return them to their plane of origin. In that case, I can see the need to put them into a list of their own, along with some other spells (perhaps my Warding circles) because it becomes a useful tool that a Summoner may wish to develop. Banishment doesn’t seem by the definition to work on creatures of this plane though, so if you summon a unicorn, you would have to cancel the spell creating the summoning link, as banishment wouldn’t be an option.
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@rdanhenry - I missed your response before I posted, but yes that text seems to counter my interpretation. Personally, I find that description from Spell Law Beta really problematic... it's feels like it's handwaving explanations for why demons get called back to their plane of origin, rather than establishing a clean mechanic that applies to all manner of summoning.
As @Vladimir and others have pointed out, there are so many schools of thought and each of us probably has a different notion of the metaphysics. I tend to think of there being two types of summoning in my vision of magic in the RMU world, or at least the setting I think I want to set my games in:
- Summoning spells, which create the tether/wormhole that pulls the creature back through (and simplifies the mechanics in my opinion).
- Creating gates, stable bridges between planes that creatures can travel through without the tether that essentially yanks them back at the end of the spell. This would be how a demon would be able to reside on our plane in a permanent manner, until forced through another gate or banished.
These concepts may not fit RMU as the rules are written, but they seem much cleaner to me than "vague cosmic energies" pulling demons back, but not elementals. No offense intended to the author of those lines, that explanation just seems awkward for my own game vision.
The idea of summoning spells creating tethers actually works well if Summoners are going to build any sort of relationship with summoned entities over time. My Component spells allow you to call specific creatures. This seems like an interesting plot hook intrinsic to the profession: In the case of a demon, perhaps the caster is providing what every summoned demon seems to want on our plane based on descriptions in past works — time to wreck havoc and opportunities to return to the Prime plane. A GM could have a lot of fun with this double-edged sword.
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I must admit I prefer the RMSS version of summoning, where summoning brings a planar entity temporarily and a control or master spell anchors the summons.
I must also admit that I up the ante a bit with those - the entity indeed leaves if the control or master spell is not cast, but if the spell is cast but fails or is resisted, then the entity does *not* leave unless it wants to - it can stay and attacks its summoner, or stay and lay waste to the place, or leave the place of summoning and go wreak havoc somewhere else unless proper containment measures have been set.
The difference between summons and gates being that the gate is not limited to a single entity, and opens both ways. Basically, a summons targets a being, a gate targets a place.
I also thing that something is missing in planar summoning (which is very prevalent in lore), and that is bargaining. Plus containment and protection.
Basically, I would like planar summoning lists to include the following kind of spells
- actual summoning spell
- containment spell. Ideally, does not require concentration (the caster will need it for other activities), but drains PP so that it cannot be maintained for long unless the caster has taken the extra precaution of setting up a power matrix to power up the containment spell.
- protection spell to protect the caster against nonphysical assaults from the entity
- influence spell to make the entity more amenable to a deal
- control and mastery spells.
The actual bargain obviously requiring knowledge about the specific entity the caster summons, as well as proper bargaining skills.
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@MisterK - While for Natural Summons spells, control is granted with the casting of the spell, in my Planar Summons list, you do need to cast a separate spell (Control Entity) to control anything summoned on that list. My rationale for the difference between this and the typical summoning process for extraplanar creatures (circle -> summon -> control) is that Summoner profession can bypass that extra step of requiring a circle. I don’t mind this because I see their magic as operating in a slightly different manner, but of course that’s why I’m reaching out to all of you – for help with the play balance.
Note that on the RAW Demonic Summons list in beta that the circle is really optional. A demon takes two rounds to appear, and you can cast Control in that time, (unless I’m mistaken). The circle is essentially a fallback plan and a chance to establish some rapport. My Warding Circle spells perform a similar functions.
This discussion though does open up a new can of worms: should control be different for intelligent creatures vs intelligent ones? Natural Summons has spells that can summon a bear or a unicorn. Should there have to be separate control spells for the unicorn? Likewise the intelligence of elementals and demons are sometimes depicted differently. Lesser elementals are sometimes depicted as more animalistic. I’m not sure how that’s changed in RMU yet, but it does raise a question of whether intelligence should play a factor in whether the creature is automatically controlled.
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This is one thing that has always bothered me about RM. I can see the summoner calling animals to him on the spot, although I think is should take longer for the animals to get to him under their own movement. But I can't think of any fiction/fantasy story where a summoner just says "I think I need to summon a demon/elemental/angel" and bamn 30 seconds of chanting later there you go. All the stories I remember sound much more like ritual magic, with hours of painstaking preparation/chanting/bargaining etc before the summoned creature is available for use.
Maybe using spell lists for summoning should just be for calling a previously summoned and bound being to your presence?
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Conversely, if you look at RPG-style computer games or anime, instant summoning is super common.
A dependence on ritual summoning requires a lot more definition of how ritual works, which is an area that leaves a lot of choices to the GM and some aren't going to want to deal with it at all. So that seems problematic.
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I think one of the issues is trying to shoe-horn certain spell lists into the standard spell casting mechanic. Alchemy spells had to add a layer of processes by requiring casting the spell daily for weeks or even months. Circles have time parameters for drawing the circle itself. I ended up expanding spell lists into 7 categories from the original 3, driven by the mechanics needed for casting.
As far as Summoning, we discussed this over at the RMBlog:
https://www.rolemasterblog.com/rolemaster-spell-law-deconstructed-summoning/
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This discussion though does open up a new can of worms: should control be different for intelligent creatures vs intelligent ones? Natural Summons has spells that can summon a bear or a unicorn. Should there have to be separate control spells for the unicorn? Likewise the intelligence of elementals and demons are sometimes depicted differently. Lesser elementals are sometimes depicted as more animalistic. I’m not sure how that’s changed in RMU yet, but it does raise a question of whether intelligence should play a factor in whether the creature is automatically controlled.
In a favorite series of fictional novels there is a short story where a Paladin and his party is hunting a wanted criminal. The party's magic user summons a demon, taking hours to draw out the summoning circle which is within a circle of binding to keep the demon enclosed. When the demon appears, he isn't very happy and the MU starts to negotiate terms of service. The demon knows the target and claims that he isn't strong enough, and suggests that the caster summon a stronger demon. The MU laughs and replies a stronger demon would be much harder to control under the crude conditions. During the negotiations, the man they are hunting sneaks into the area while the party is distracted by the demon and he casts a spear. The Paladin shouts for somebody to protect the MU but the spear isn't even close -It strikes the ground and the tip cuts a groove in the circle of binding. The demon is overjoyed and wraps his arms about the MU, who screams in terror. "We'll see who is master now!" The demon and mage disappear with a thunderous crash.
A GM does have to set a number of metaphysical laws before allowing Summoners. Depending on your reference sources, beings from outside of the Material Plane usually don't like to enter the Material Plane for various reasons. In a couple of stories, demons are terrified of dying on the Material Plane but no reasons are given, hence they will only spend a set, negotiated time to complete a defined task and will attempt to pervert the wording to go home ASAP.
Controlling animals is one thing but I consider intelligent beings a totally different matter -You have to convince them or pay them for their time in a Plane they don't like and they may be in a bad mood for being called in the first place.
Imagine, if you will, a player being summoned just as he was to sit down for a favorite dinner with friends. Pouf! All of a sudden, he's on another continent, and there's a blizzard outside... The caster (holding his "Summoning for Idiots" book) has X amount of time to convince the player to stay and complete a task. I, for one, don't give freebies -My time is worth something, at double overtime rates.
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Imagine, if you will, a player being summoned just as he was to sit down for a favorite dinner with friends. Pouf! All of a sudden, he's on another continent, and there's a blizzard outside...
*that's* something I would like to do at least once in a campaign. I mean, why should summoning work only on outsider entities ? If there is a spell that compels entities to do the summoner's bidding, there *must* be a spell to compel PCs to do the summoner's bidding. And being summoned by a demon for some task sure promises hours upon hours of fun - half of them being spent by the players to try and obey the letter of the command while subverting its spirit... which is probably exactly what the summoning demon expects and has planned for (real-life experience speaks).
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*that's* something I would like to do at least once in a campaign. I mean, why should summoning work only on outsider entities ? If there is a spell that compels entities to do the summoner's bidding, there *must* be a spell to compel PCs to do the summoner's bidding. And being summoned by a demon for some task sure promises hours upon hours of fun - half of them being spent by the players to try and obey the letter of the command while subverting its spirit... which is probably exactly what the summoning demon expects and has planned for (real-life experience speaks).
This is a common RPG plot where I'm from (Hawaii, where 60% of the population is Asian) and is a very popular Anime sub-genre (Isekai, or "other world").
I've pulled a Wehrmacht squad out of Stalingrad to fight in a fantasy campaign, had a group play themselves in the 1683 Siege of Vienna, and many others. I'm currently in a SW campaign where my MERP party has been summoned to execute a (yet to be determined) mission. In the meantime, the party is learning languages and local culture, my character is studying military history as he aims to found an empire.
In another campaign, my character was summoned by a demon to serve him for 20 years (I played a Lich) and was rewarded with some experience, magic items and very powerful spells for my time.
The Anime series "How A Realist Hero Rebuilt The Kingdom" a Japanese college student was summoned to save a kingdom in trouble. So, a "Hero Summoning" spell would have certain criteria based upon need. The kingdom in question wouldn't be saved by Hercules or Conan, they needed a thinker.
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This is one thing that has always bothered me about RM. I can see the summoner calling animals to him on the spot, although I think is should take longer for the animals to get to him under their own movement. But I can't think of any fiction/fantasy story where a summoner just says "I think I need to summon a demon/elemental/angel" and bamn 30 seconds of chanting later there you go
@netbat, you're not wrong... a great deal of fantasy literature depicts the exhaustive nature of summoning magic — time required, ritual components, negotiating the terms, etc. That being said, this is part of my issue with so many depictions of the Summoner: playability. As MisterK said in another post in reference to playing a Healer, "unless being a healer is as much fun as being any other class, you have a design issue." This is at the core of my trying to make a Summoner more desirable to play.
In regards to the examples of shorter time in summoning spells, as Jdale notes:
...if you look at RPG-style computer games or anime, instant summoning is super common.
The Final Fantasy series is the most obvious example, but there are plenty of others. In fact, I think this makes the class far more fun, and it still comes at a cost. A 5th level Mage can cast bolt spells every round. While a Summoner is busy gating in a bear or a wolf and sacrificing concentration each round, the Mage is delivering damage and directly affecting the battlefield. Obviously there are utility issues to consider, but RMU's current ruleset treats summoning as a fairly quick process and my rules make it a bit more powerful, but at a heavy trade of PPs and/or time expended.
@Vlad, solid points as well... I really like the idea that more powerful entities, especially intelligent ones, require bartering for their services. I just don't know how well that fits into the models above without some additional mechanics (which I'm trying to avoid).
RMSS seems to have tried to combine Summoning magic with a set skill: Summoning, meaning that you needed to invest DP into being able to summon the appropriate entities. It's certainly a way to go, although I'm trying to avoid yet another DP sink for characters.
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I think one of the issues is trying to shoe-horn certain spell lists into the standard spell casting mechanic.
@B Hanson, that's certainly the issue I'm running up against, although I do think that having some sort of universal system in place for various types of spells is a good thing that promotes streamlining magic. Your magic categories are an excellent concept, I just am hesitant to revamp the entire system again because of one spell type. Long term, that's the plan of course... which is already partially addressed in my Spheres of Magic system.
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@Vlad, solid points as well... I really like the idea that more powerful entities, especially intelligent ones, require bartering for their services. I just don't know how well that fits into the models above without some additional mechanics (which I'm trying to avoid).
RMSS seems to have tried to combine Summoning magic with a set skill: Summoning, meaning that you needed to invest DP into being able to summon the appropriate entities. It's certainly a way to go, although I'm trying to avoid yet another DP sink for characters.
Summoning is a very specialized class. A Summoner could probably snap his fingers and conjure rabbits and doves all day but unless you are serving stew and squab, the practicality is limited. A cast fireball is a tactical weapon that might harm a squad, while summoning a demon or dragon is producing a strategic weapon that could crush an army. Do you really want a spellcaster snapping his fingers and popping in a demon or dragon every round? A nuke should cost more than a grenade and be far more complicated to make.
Isekai storylines work for the Japanese because culturally, the Japanese tend to obey authority so summoned people (including whole classrooms of children) tend to follow orders. There are few exceptions, such as in The Rise of the Shield Hero where summoned heroes were killed for refusing to comply. In another series, Arifureta: From Commonplace to World's Strongest, a high school classroom, including the teacher are summoned to be heroes and undergo training as fighters and magic users to fight demons. The hero is attacked by a jealous classmate during a battle and the hero wakes up many levels deeper in the dungeon. He survives, even though he's a weak support mage, he increases his power and clears the dungeon. He then decides to strike off on his own and the church that summoned him declares him a heretic for slipping their leash.
Summoning is more in the realm of ritual magic, which requires meticulous pre-casting planning and protections, especially when attempting to summon powerful, potentially hostile beings. I don't see how summoning gives the caster automatic control or even influence. At best, I'd allow a random reaction table prior to negotiations. I realize you are trying to make this simple but gating in an intelligent being that may even be more intelligent than a human should not be simple. Summoning a dragon would be like encountering one in the wild, but with protections up just in case you have to send it back. Such a summon should neither be cheap nor easy or it would be commonplace.
Last example from Anime... She Professed Herself Pupil of the Wise Man. This series is about a Summoner...but he's the most powerful wizard in he world, so he does snap his fingers and drops strategic level demons on the battlefield... This is a bizarre MMO-based series where a veteran player who took a few years off from playing restarts his old, legendary character and while redesigning his avatar, falls asleep at the keyboard and wakes up as a teenaged girl...with godlike powers, able to summon Valkyries and giant, demonic knights. The character is so high in level that it can melee with demons and beat them, so not a very good measure of your average Summoner, but how many specialists in summoning are there? The complication is that the character is unable to log off from the MMO so it is sort of an Isekai theme.
(https://www.looper.com/img/gallery/she-professed-herself-pupil-of-the-wiseman-release-date-characters-plot-what-we-know-so-far/what-is-the-release-date-for-pupil-of-the-wiseman-1632263241.jpg)