Author Topic: I need help!  (Read 4366 times)

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Offline Gorrath

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I need help!
« on: October 25, 2009, 08:35:26 PM »
I wanna start playing Rolemaster again but I can't decide between RMC and RMFRP.

I use to play RM2 but that was like 15 years ago and I don't have a clue what exactly changed since then.

I'm not really in contact with the the guy who had the books so I need to buy some new books and I want to make sure I'm gonna buy the good edition of the game.

I've read a lot of thread on the net with people saying RMC/RM2 is better or RMFRP/RMSS is better but without any arguments...
So I still have no clue what makes one edition better or worse than the other.

I'm thinking RMC since it seems to be the same rules as RM2, so it won't take me long to learn to play the game well.
But it kinda pi**es me off that they are not reprinting the
Companions.
Also, the RMFRP books seems easier to find on online stores like Amazon. Kinda weird since it's like 8 years older...

But, beside those things...I have nothing to help my decision!

Would be nice if you guys could tell me the good/bad things of those 2 editions.

Thanks for your time

Patrick


Offline David Johansen

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 08:56:22 PM »
Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplay is a lot more complete and according to some  more complex.  I will admit there is a little more record keeping.

Stat generation is better balanced, starting characters are more competent, the spell lists are more complete, and the books more readable, though frp is not better organized than RMC, the compatible, earlier Standard system is better organized.  The down side is that character creation is slower, especially for newcomers because there is a lot of information to sift through.  There are also some unbalanced options in the optional talent rules.  It is easier to break the game, though that's relative in terms of a game where any character (and I mean ANY character) can be removed by a lucky roll.

RMC is newer and the art is better.  Yes, really RMSS / RMC didn't have the world's greatest art.  And art does matter.  Also, in RMfrp you can't play the lion guy on the cover with the core book.  You can't with RMC either but some people feel it's an issue on account of his being on the cover and all that.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 09:10:18 PM by David Johansen »

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 09:06:02 PM »
First off, it all depends upon what you want out of Rolemaster. Your personal preferences will determine what you actually want.

RMC is not exactly identical to RM2, there were changes to the spell types, and to the initiative rules (those are the two biggest changes), and a few other minor things here and there.

The place to start would be with this page

http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/RMCvsRMFRP

Which gives  a comparison of the core books of those two systems.

If, you decide upon RMC, then you have another choice, between RMC and Rolemaster Express. RMX is essentially the core of RMC with a few options implemented to make low level characters more viable.

 Here is the page that compares RMC and RMX: http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/RMCvsRMX

You can view a RMX Teaser here -- http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4360.0 -- this sampler contains a page that lists the options/rule changes made between core RMC and RMX.


As for the old Companions - sorry, but there isn't much help for that. When the old ICE went out of business, most of the rights for that material reverted to the original authors. Thus, without new contracts, the current ICE cannot reprint them - and to make matters worse, those Companions usually have multiple authors (one had 27 different authors), and ICE does not have contact information for them.


Another helpful source might be the PDF line, Express Additions - the following page shows the contents of each pdf -- http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/RMC/exad

Offline Gorrath

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 09:47:36 PM »
Thanks for the infos!

Is it a lot of work to convert the stuff from RM2 (like the Companions) to RMFRP?

Is there something like the Companions for RMFRP?

If my memory is good, there was a lot of nice stuff in those Companions.
I'll always remember the first time I read the story about that group getting wiped by a Black Reaver in the first Companion.
Then, I saw his stats...OMG!!
Not sure what kind of monsters came out since then in other editions, but back then, that dude was really scary!
lol

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 09:58:13 PM »
The biggest difference between RM2/C/X and RMFRP is the skill system. Core RMC has 28 core skills, and about 45 or so optional skills. RMFRP has 56 skill categories, with over 300 skills (none listed as optional, but you can always trim things back).

Conversion is made more difficult with some of the aspects of RMFRP (i.e. occupational/everyman/restricted skills - which alter how many ranks are gained for each rank purchased).

Rolemaster Companion I is for sale on the Guild Companion store - http://guild.ironcrown.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=121&products_id=504

You can actually get a bit of an idea by looking at character sheets (and spreadsheets) for each.

You can find RMFRP sheets here --> http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat18

You can find RMC character sheets here --> http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat50



Offline RandalThor

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 10:31:51 PM »
I would suggest RMC as it is less complicated for newer players than RMFRP, though as an experienced RM gamer I personally like RMFRP better. Both can be really fun though.
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 10:41:52 PM »
(none listed as optional, but you can always trim things back).

Any skill not listed in a culture or training package is entirely optional.  The problem seems to be that people don't know when to stop adding skills to their sheet.

GURPS gives you a very similar problem where new players go through the book one page at a time and write a ten page list of everything they want.  Then they put one point into everything.  Thankfully, Rolemaster manages to be a bit more focused.

Offline bottg

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 02:24:13 AM »
Rolemaster Companion I is for sale on the Guild Companion store - http://guild.ironcrown.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=121&products_id=504

You can actually get a bit of an idea by looking at character sheets (and spreadsheets) for each.

You can find RMFRP sheets here --> http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat18

You can find RMC character sheets here --> http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat50

My personal preference would be for RMC as it seems to play a bit quicker (for our group anyway).

I would second the Companion I "reprint" mentioned above

I could also take this opportunity to mention the RMC character sheets of mine in the vault, which have the primary stats, magic realm and skill costs already filled out for each profession:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item624

Offline pastaav

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 05:19:55 AM »
Is it a lot of work to convert the stuff from RM2 (like the Companions) to RMFRP?

Depends on what your goal is...most of the RM2 companion professions is "as fighter, but with the following changes". Essentially there was no effort to make the rules or options consistent or balanced. If you are content with the same level of balance then you can use the same model for RMFRP. Arbitrary decide what RMFRP profession to start with and make adjustments until satisfied that it capture the spirit of the RM2 profression.
About spell lists there is the potential issue that some RM2 companion lists have over powered spells, but essentially you can use them directly in RMFRP (the only thing to be careful with is different rules from instantaneous spells in RMFRP that might make the spell list even better).
About other rules there is no reason they can not be adopted, both RMC and RMFRP is essentially the same. The real abuse always happened when multiple options from different sources was combined. The same kind of abuse is of course possible with RMFRP too.

Is there something like the Companions for RMFRP?

RMFRP has excellent thematic companions that include must of the good ideas from RM2 companions. Unfortunately some of these are hard to get due to ICE lacking the rights to publish them. In some cases like Martial Arts Companion you can use the RMC book Combat Companion, in other cases like the excellent Arcane Companion there is no real substitute from ICE.

I'll always remember the first time I read the story about that group getting wiped by a Black Reaver in the first Companion.

The RMFRP book Creature and Monsters include Black Reaver and IMHO most other interesting monsters from the RM2 companions. There are some specific spell lists for monsters that never was converted, but I never found these useful enough to motivate me to open the RM2 companions to look for monsters.

At the end of the day it all boils down to if you prefer to start with RMCs skill list that is lacking lots of essential skills and add skills until it works or if you want to start with RMFRPs complete lists of skills and trim it down until it fits you desired style of play.
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Offline thrud

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 08:38:48 AM »
If you liked RM2 15 years ago you'll like RMC today as it's basically the same thing.

RMSS/RMFRP is an entirely different animal. The 300 skills Rasyr mentioned are only the core skills. If you buy companions they expand it even further with lots of "optional skills".

Some people like RMC and some like RMSS. If you decide to go for RMC you can have it up and running in no time (because of your previous experience).
RMSS will take some more work.

Offline Nders

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 10:18:16 AM »
Quote
Also, in RMfrp you can't play the lion guy on the cover with the core book.  You can't with RMC either but some people feel it's an issue on account of his being on the cover and all that.

You might want to try the Idiyva if you really wanted to play a lion man :D

I think if your previous experience is with Rm2 then go RMC. I can't think of a single person I know who play RMSS or RMFRP if they had access to Rm2/RMC material.

Offline Wōdwulf Seaxaning

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 12:38:22 PM »
If you liked RM2 15 years ago you'll like RMC today as it's basically the same thing.

RMSS/RMFRP is an entirely different animal. The 300 skills Rasyr mentioned are only the core skills. If you buy companions they expand it even further with lots of "optional skills".

Some people like RMC and some like RMSS. If you decide to go for RMC you can have it up and running in no time (because of your previous experience).
RMSS will take some more work.

I second this suggestion. I personally prefer RMX & RMC over RMSS/RMFRPG as I don't like the changes made in both RMSS or RMFRPG. Concerning companions, get the exsisting PDFs that are available @ the ICE store , the RMc1 from GC or look up online for used print copies of them. Hopefully ICE will eventually publish new companions for RMC that are more balanced than the originals.
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Offline Gorrath

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 04:37:32 PM »
What are all those unbalanced things in RM2?

RM2 was my first RPG so I wasn't really good at finding the broken stuff back then!

There is one crazy thing that I remember...my Chaotic Lord had a Mithril 2 handed sword with the thing to be able to use it in 1 hand as well as a power points x 3 and an additionnal desintegration critical E.

Can't believe my DM let me buy a custom sword like this! lol

Offline thrud

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 04:45:20 PM »
Imho, the unabalancing issues are vastly exagerated.
Play and have fun, as long as no one is complaining you're good.

Offline markc

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 06:33:34 PM »
 The RM2 Companions suffered from power creep and in general we staff and fan based articles. But if they work for you then that is fine, just remember that the bad guys can do the same things as the good guys.

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Offline Winterknight

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 11:07:15 AM »

At the end of the day it all boils down to if you prefer to start with RMCs skill list that is lacking lots of essential skills and add skills until it works or if you want to start with RMFRPs complete lists of skills and trim it down until it fits you desired style of play.

OR...you could start with RMC's list of standard skills and secondary skills, and trim it down from there.  I use around 44 skills total.  I dislike the degree of discrimination in RMSS - I run a more open game, and rather than parsing an activity down to determine if a character has a specific skill that fits, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt, and allow them to try something they already DO possess.  I find nothing "essential" lacking in RMC's skill assortment.  It all depends on how broadly you interpret each skill.

That being said, RMSS has some strong points.  The HP and PP progressions are much better IMO.  Race-based, not tied to stat (as in the case of PP's for RMC).  I like the rate of stat progression from RMSS more than RMC, but I just use a different homemade table for that for my game that gets me what I want.  RMFRP adds the stat bonuses together, while RMC averages the stat bonuses, so for RMFRP, you have to make sure that every skill has an equal number of stats that affect it (3), to get consistent stat effects across all skills.  Of course, you can use something like ST/ST/ST, to get a single stat as an effect, so that's not necessarily a deal breaker.  But, if you want a skill that's equal parts ST and AG, for example, rather than simply averaging the bonus as for RMC, you have to do a little trick, like adding 2 stats and multiplying by 1.5.

Spell acquisition is much better in RMFRP, but again, it's an easy thing to bring over.  Some folks like the more complete spell lists from the RMFRP books, but since spells are basically interchangeable, there's no reason you couldn't use RMFRP spell lists with an RMC core game. 

So, for me, I run an amalgam of concepts anyway, and both systems have positives and not-positives.  I do agree that the biggest difference between the two is the set of skills, and the core approach to them.  RMFRP is simply more record-keeping than I'm willing to do for a casual friendly game,  especially when I'm going to have to try to find a way to make the adventure work with what the players DID spend points on, not what they could have developed.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 04:08:46 PM »
You can buy a RMXpress PDF for $5, play a session or two and then either buy all the Express Additions, or flat out upgrade to RMC.  RMX is Q&D to start, but easily customizable in my opinion.  How many players may I ask?
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Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2009, 03:39:03 PM »
I recommend RM2 without anything past RMCII. Even a lot of that is a quite overpowered.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 10:41:04 PM »
Personally I think, generically, the people who grew up with RM playing RM2 are going to say it's better and the people who grew up with RM playing RMSS/RMFRP are going to tell you it's better.  I personally think the primary statement I'd make is that the newer version is I definitely balanced better for someone who doesn't know RM well already.

So, if you remember RM2 well and are confident you can keep the power creep in check, you might stick with it (or try RMC).
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Offline pastaav

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Re: I need help!
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 12:12:28 AM »
Personally I think, generically, the people who grew up with RM playing RM2 are going to say it's better and the people who grew up with RM playing RMSS/RMFRP are going to tell you it's better.  I personally think the primary statement I'd make is that the newer version is I definitely balanced better for someone who doesn't know RM well already.

I did grow up with MERP and RM2, but still find RMSS/RMFRP to be a superior product.

I think that the reverse of what you said is that many people who started with RM2 never really played enough of RMSS to get past the sensation "this games use other options than I have used so far". They simply returned to using RM2 since they still had those books. With Harp and RM you need to play for a while before all the fine details make sense and this is IMHO true for RMC vs RMFRP also.
/Pa Staav