Topic: Level scales

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I've always been wondering whether my games were too low or too high levelled. As such, I wondered not about which levels your PCs are, but rather what your level scales were. What does a 'level' mean in your world? What's the level of an average person in his profession? Of someone at the end of his career and soon to retire? Of elites, hard-trained people whose life only consists of hard training and actual practice, such as military elite corps? Of legendary people, people who, through a way or another, lived a dozen lifetimes, travelled over the world, met on a regular basis supernatural or divine entities, fought them and are part of the stories, legends and tales of whole countries? Of said supernatural or divine beings, may they be demi-gods, divine servants or gods themselves?

For my part, average people are level 4-5, retiring or young elite people would be around 10, while an elite veteran may reach 16 at the end of his career.
No ordinary human being would be able to exceed that, with level 17-19 being the levels of above-mentioned legendary people, who lived centuries or several lives.
Levels 20-30 are levels of divine servants, beings rumoured to be able to single-handily take down a whole city... or even a whole country. With divine intervention, a human being may reach these levels and, in fact, "enlightened" human beings who had granted eternal life by a god (usually in exchange for servitude) are of these levels after a few centuries or millennia.
Levels 31-50 are pretty much high-ranked divine servants, such as the commander of a pantheon's whole army, while 51 and above are the gods themselves.

In all of this, my PCs usually start around 5-6 but the main story usually have them around level 11-12.

[markc]

 Note I use RMSS but the info might be helpful to you.

 I have changed my average person to 3rd to 9th, with above average people about 10th -13th, I do not set a cap on high level people.
MDC

[Arioch]

More or less:

under-average: 1-3
average: 4-10
above average: 10-15
elite: 16-20
hero: 21-30
legend: 31-50
lesser demigod: 51-99
greater demigod: 100+
gods:

[rdanhenry]

Average person at what age? Hero at what age? If the twins John and Jeff start out as 1st level at age 15 and John goes out and becomes a hero and Jeff stays home on the farm living a "dull, ordinary life", the difference in their levels increases over time as John levels swiftly, while Jeff levels slowly.

Ten years later, at age 25, John and Jeff meet at a family reunion. John has been piling on a hefty 50 experience points per day (earned in large spurts and then not much during recovery periods), whereas Jeff has been making a lowly 5 experience points per day. John is 11th level, while Jeff is only 2nd level.

Another 10 years, same assumptions on experience rates, goes by. John is 16th level, Jeff is 4th level.

At age 45, John is 21st level (yes, you can become a Lord in reasonable human span of 'adventuring'), while Jeff has reached 5th level.

At age 60, John and Jeff both die when they meet again and a meteor falls on them. John reached the 26th level before his death; Jeff was 7th level. If they'd both been a little more proactive about seeking out those experience points and doubled their intake, John would have been level 43 and Jeff level 10 at their deaths. This gives us ranges of 1-43 for a heroic lifestyle and 1-10 for a mundane lifestyle. Where in these ranges a person falls depends on many factors, but generally speaking, more active individuals and older individuals will both tend to be higher level.

Dwarves or those with similar lifespans can hope to see level 50. Elves or other immortals... are scary. After 1000 years, a puny 5 experience points per day is 46 levels. If that time were actually spent frequently adventuring (and somehow survived), it easily goes into triple digits.

Gods should not have levels unless you're doing a "kill the gods" campaign.

[markc]

Average person at what age? Hero at what age? If the twins John and Jeff start out as 1st level at age 15 and John goes out and becomes a hero and Jeff stays home on the farm living a "dull, ordinary life", the difference in their levels increases over time as John levels swiftly, while Jeff levels slowly.

Ten years later, at age 25, John and Jeff meet at a family reunion. John has been piling on a hefty 50 experience points per day (earned in large spurts and then not much during recovery periods), whereas Jeff has been making a lowly 5 experience points per day. John is 11th level, while Jeff is only 2nd level.

Another 10 years, same assumptions on experience rates, goes by. John is 16th level, Jeff is 4th level.

At age 45, John is 21st level (yes, you can become a Lord in reasonable human span of 'adventuring'), while Jeff has reached 5th level.

At age 60, John and Jeff both die when they meet again and a meteor falls on them. John reached the 26th level before his death; Jeff was 7th level. If they'd both been a little more proactive about seeking out those experience points and doubled their intake, John would have been level 43 and Jeff level 10 at their deaths. This gives us ranges of 1-43 for a heroic lifestyle and 1-10 for a mundane lifestyle. Where in these ranges a person falls depends on many factors, but generally speaking, more active individuals and older individuals will both tend to be higher level.

Dwarves or those with similar lifespans can hope to see level 50. Elves or other immortals... are scary. After 1000 years, a puny 5 experience points per day is 46 levels. If that time were actually spent frequently adventuring (and somehow survived), it easily goes into triple digits.

Gods should not have levels unless you're doing a "kill the gods" campaign.

 Whats your point?
MDC

[Nejira]

If its an "common" NPC I usually set the level max at ten. That´s the maximum of experience a normal person can have in my campaigns. Professionals are around level 5, with expert/veterans from 6-10. So a professional soldier would be level 5-10.

Above level ten is reserved for special NPCs and of course PCs. But its more a guideline than a hard rule, but I use it to have something to measure from. Level 25 is the level cap unless we are talking really special NPCs, and really really special may break level 50.

Age and level doesn´t go hand in hand in my campaigns. I never found level based system to be good at that. I see level as part experience and part a measurement of power/talent (mostly the later). So if we got a 65 old bishop who technically may be a priest of profession, he wouldn´t necessary be high level in my campaigns. On the other hand we might have a young hero-to-be which starts out as level 5 because well he is just that good to begin with.

[markc]

If its an "common" NPC I usually set the level max at ten. That´s the maximum of experience a normal person can have in my campaigns. Professionals are around level 5, with expert/veterans from 6-10. So a professional soldier would be level 5-10.

Above level ten is reserved for special NPCs and of course PCs. But its more a guideline than a hard rule, but I use it to have something to measure from. Level 25 is the level cap unless we are talking really special NPCs, and really really special may break level 50.

Age and level doesn´t go hand in hand in my campaigns. I never found level based system to be good at that. I see level as part experience and part a measurement of power/talent (mostly the later). So if we got a 65 old bishop who technically may be a priest of profession, he wouldn´t necessary be high level in my campaigns. On the other hand we might have a young hero-to-be which starts out as level 5 because well he is just that good to begin with.

 I also like to untangle the persons age from level as it makes for a better story and IMO more realistic.
MDC

[rdanhenry]

Average person at what age? Hero at what age? If the twins John and Jeff start out as 1st level at age 15 and John goes out and becomes a hero and Jeff stays home on the farm living a "dull, ordinary life", the difference in their levels increases over time as John levels swiftly, while Jeff levels slowly.

Ten years later, at age 25, John and Jeff meet at a family reunion. John has been piling on a hefty 50 experience points per day (earned in large spurts and then not much during recovery periods), whereas Jeff has been making a lowly 5 experience points per day. John is 11th level, while Jeff is only 2nd level.

Another 10 years, same assumptions on experience rates, goes by. John is 16th level, Jeff is 4th level.

At age 45, John is 21st level (yes, you can become a Lord in reasonable human span of 'adventuring'), while Jeff has reached 5th level.

At age 60, John and Jeff both die when they meet again and a meteor falls on them. John reached the 26th level before his death; Jeff was 7th level. If they'd both been a little more proactive about seeking out those experience points and doubled their intake, John would have been level 43 and Jeff level 10 at their deaths. This gives us ranges of 1-43 for a heroic lifestyle and 1-10 for a mundane lifestyle. Where in these ranges a person falls depends on many factors, but generally speaking, more active individuals and older individuals will both tend to be higher level.

Dwarves or those with similar lifespans can hope to see level 50. Elves or other immortals... are scary. After 1000 years, a puny 5 experience points per day is 46 levels. If that time were actually spent frequently adventuring (and somehow survived), it easily goes into triple digits.

Gods should not have levels unless you're doing a "kill the gods" campaign.

 Whats your point?
MDC

Just providing some data points. 10th level as a cap for a peaceful life works out to essentially the same thing as assuming such an individual average 10 experience points per day.

[Arioch]

Just providing some data points. 10th level as a cap for a peaceful life works out to essentially the same thing as assuming such an individual average 10 experience points per day.

Do NPCs need XPs?
I just give them a level and skills accordingly to it. Level is simply a way to see how good a character is in doing what is able to do, it has nothing to do with his style of life imho. A young, very skilled farmsman or merchant could be a 15th level layman...

[rdanhenry]

Level does not represent skill in Rolemaster, unlike certain more rigid games. Skills represent skill in Rolemaster. It is possible to make a quite capable 1st level farmer or merchant. Level represents experience in Rolemaster, and in real life, people do become more skilled with experience. Adventurers do gain experience faster, as will anyone who seeks out new experiences (the multipliers for first time experiences is pretty significant in RM). This too is close to reality. We learn more when we push beyond our comfort level and try new things.

[Nejira]

Level does not represent skill in Rolemaster, unlike certain more rigid games. Skills represent skill in Rolemaster. It is possible to make a quite capable 1st level farmer or merchant. Level represents experience in Rolemaster, and in real life, people do become more skilled with experience. Adventurers do gain experience faster, as will anyone who seeks out new experiences (the multipliers for first time experiences is pretty significant in RM). This too is close to reality. We learn more when we push beyond our comfort level and try new things.

In a sense yes, but level also determines the cap on number of ranks and isn´t number of ranks experience in a given skill? I never liked the level=experience idea, especially when coupled with the notion of starting at level 1. I also felt to justice being soo weak, you need to be young but then again you gain experience/levels rather quick on the first levels but time doesn´t necessary progress at the same rate. Also you go from level 1 with about 70 DPs to suddenly level 2 with 150 DPs never made that much sense to me.

So I divorced the idea of level/experience is connected to age. I also try to avoid putting Real Life into my games, as in my experience my views on how RL works isn´t necessary the same as my players. So somethings may be unrealistic to someone, but if its in the rules it´s doable in the game.

[Arioch]

You aren't considering the fact that level limits the number of ranks you can have in a skill and, in RMC, it directly affect your final skill bonus in skills tied to your profession.
Sure, you can make a capable 1st level merchant, but at 1st level he cannot have 30 ranks in Trading. So his trading capability is strictly connected to his level. "Skill" is not represented by skills only, but by skills+level+profession.
And no, level does not represent experience in RM: level it's just an arbitrary measure of a character's potential capabilites, of its "power", if you prefer. And has really nothing to do with real life.

[rdanhenry]

That's one reason I prefer RMSS. It makes it easy to create young/inexperienced characters that are good at a job or two. RM2 Core didn't even have non-adventuring Professions. (It was still *D&D characters with a touch of flexibility at that point in Rolemaster development.) Still, background options included skill bonuses as an early development (RM2 core books, although optional, IIRC). Just rule that you can take the skill bonus as many times as you like for a "professional" skill and instant capable young blacksmiths and coopers.

But I'd failed to notice this was the RM2/Classic/Express board and was thinking of the power and flexibility of the RMSS/FRP system.

[Arioch]

But I'd failed to notice this was the RM2/Classic/Express board and was thinking of the power and flexibility of the RMSS/FRP system.

I never noticed that in RMFRP you could take how many ranks as you wish in a skill, regardless of your level... 

[Marc R]

I'd consider it a bit of a deus ex to run into a 20th level 18 year old merchant. . . .he must have had a rather productive approx 2 years. . . .or be a 100 year old merchant in a purchased youthful body.

Age = experience in logical terms. . . .I wouldn't say that every 70 year old would be 25+ level, but the average level should trend upward with age, and any 15 year old you encounter who's 20+ level must have a hell of a story attached.

Or in your gameworlds, do you casually toss in the illogic of a 12 year old Master Blacksmith teaching the finer points of finishing work to his 60 year old journeyman while the 30 year old apprentice sweeps the shop?

A 5th level Journeyman NPC blacksmith can be constructed to be competant for any task he's likely to be asked to do. . .if you're looking to construct an iron golem, you might need to look past the young smith with the shop in the villiage who repairs plows and makes horseshoes for a living.

In much the way you'll tend not to find a 20th level fighter pulling nightwatch on the city gate, I'd assume you'd not find a 20th level merchant selling rope in the marketplace (if you do, there's gotta be a crazy story there). . .20th level merchant will be a "captain of industry" so to speak, possibly one of the most powerful people in their vicinity.

[Arioch]

I'd consider it a bit of a deus ex to run into a 20th level 18 year old merchant. . . .

I can't see why that would be a problem, obviously not every 18 years old merchant will be al level 20, but why not? If the GM has a good reason to make a very young talented NPC a 20th level character, nothing stops him from doing so. That's why imho for NPCs level is just a way to give a rough idea of a character's potentialities to the GM, it has nothing to do with age or experience.
After all, is a 15 level skeleton more experienced than a 5th level one? Or is the difference in level between a bear and a squirrel a matter of age?

[Marc R]

I'd consider it unlikey in the extreme, not impossible, just highly unlikely.

It's possible. . .but said merchant will have a life story that will sound like a PC's life story, to explain the rapid level advancement.

Your examples are akin to "Is a rectangle older than a bartlet pear?" You need to compare like to like.

Is a 50th level dragon older than a 10th level dragon? I'd say likely yes.

A 5th level skeleton is a construct, a 15th level skeleton is a construct built by a higher level caster. (it's likely that the 15th level caster was older).

I'd say that odds are, an older squirril would be a higher effective level than a younger squirril. . .and odds are the wily, experienced (higher level) bear is an older bear, not a cub.

I'm not saying that there is an absolute and unbreakable correlation between age and level, but there is definitely a strong connection between the two. . .time allows you to gain experience, and experience is quite literally the currency of level. . .

Playing to your example:

Younger, talented, prodigy of a merchant

vs

Older, experienced, skilled master merchant who has seen it all


While it's possible that the youth is 20th level, it's highly unlikely. . .it's more likely that they have high stat bonuses to their core skills, and/or background options or talents that apply.

A young prodigy is far more likely to be 4th level = 10 ranks = +50 + 20 stats + 15 2ndary skill bonus = +85 bonus to skill, while an experienced old hand of higher level might have a similar bonus, based more in ranks (i.e. in experience and skill). . .

I'm not saying that you cannot have exceptions to the norm, but age=experience is the norm. . .unless of course it's the norm to see the 15 year old master with the 60 year old apprentice?

[Arioch]

I'm not saying that there is an absolute and unbreakable correlation between age and level, but there is definitely a strong connection between the two. . .time allows you to gain experience, and experience is quite literally the currency of level. . .

That would be true if you had to simulate closely the life of every NPC in your world, making him gaining XPs exactly like PCs, stat them out one by one, decide what will they do everyday, etc...
But that's not how I do it, I give stats and levels to NPCs only when they have some kind of impact on the narration in the game.
What's the level of that random guy in the street? Or of a random baker? I don't know, nor I need to know.
I need to know what the level of a NPC is only when he interact with the PCs (directly or indirectly) in a way covered by the game mechanics.
And how do I decide which level he's gonna be?
I don't start thinking about his whole life to find out how many XPs he has ("well, he's seventeen so he spent X years of his life doing this and earning Y XPs, ..."), I simply look at his role in the fiction, think at the "level scales" for my setting and say, for example: "I need him to be a young swordsman, he'll be skilled but not too much... I'll make him level 10" or "This will be a seasoned, but not very skilled mercenary... I'll make him level 5" and so on...

So imho the only thing that influences a NPC's level is in-game fiction.

[RandalThor]

I never liked the level=experience idea,

I don't agree here. In every game that has levels, experience and levels are intricately linked, a symbiotic relationship as it were. The fact that you need to reach a certain amount of XP to get to a particular level demonstrates this in detail. Now, in RM, you don't have to increase a skill to the max allowable, but that doesn't mean they aren't still linked - because at any new level you can increase it to it's max and no further (until you reach the next level).

But level doesn't only equate to age, but to power. The squirrel vs bear is a great example. The bear has a higher "level" than the squirrel mostly so that when (if) it is defeated by the PCs it will grant more XP than the squirrel but also to reflect that it's abilities (such as a very mean right hook, oh and left hook) are greater than the those of the squirrel - who is excellent at annoying pets and homeowners (+85, I think  ).

I also felt to justice being soo weak, you need to be young but then again you gain experience/levels rather quick on the first levels but time doesn't necessary progress at the same rate. Also you go from level 1 with about 70 DPs to suddenly level 2 with 150 DPs never made that much sense to me.

I do agree here. In a level based game, the common person on the street cannot be the lowest level possible. (Unless there are only 6-8 possible levels maybe......maybe.) Especially in RM where the max level is practically immeasurable. The lowest levels need to be confined to the very young/still in training. As for the DP discrepancy, I like to go with a flat amount of DPs/level that don't change, so I don't have that problem. Though we all the the silliness of the current situation: we learn faster when younger so the higher DP count should be had at the earliest levels (i.e., when younger). We need to break away from the entrenched mentality of the level-based gaming industry. Smash the cage! Break out! You can do it!!  
Just because your character is starting out their adventuring career, doesn't mean they are starting their life from scratch.

But, this is another reason I tend to prefer non-level based games.....

But for RM (really RMSS/FRP) my level scheme goes as follows:

Adolescent: 1-2
Apprenticeship: 3-4
Professional: 5-10
Experienced Pro: 11-20
Highly Ex Pro: 20-30
The best of the best: 30+

As you can see, I like to go with higher levels than the rest, but that is because I do not consider a +50 or +60 as a professional level skill bonus. For me, a professional succeeds more often than not at average tasks (+0 mod.) for work. Try to do your job and fail nearly half the time. How long would you be employed? For me the average professional level skill bonus is more like +80 to +100 (total). That means that when you give the blacksmith an order for some new hoe-heads he doesn't ruin half of his materials making them and that he doesn't have to take 2 weeks on just those.

[Marc R]

You still benchmark them to logic. . .odds are, unless there's a driving story reason to create a character that cuts across grain, you'd make the 20th level merchant an older NPC, and the 1st level merchant younger. . . . .if I stick an 18 year old 20th level merchant into a game, there will be a story behind that.

Frankly, any 20th level character in my games is going to have a signifigant backstory. . .I might not bother for every 1st level dingleberry, but if I actually stick a 20th level character into play, odds are they would actually have a character sheet.

As to experience and NPCs. . .if they're used once, they are often a snapshot thumbnail of a character. . .I have a binder full of off the cuff NPCs of various levels and professions I've collected over the years (reusing is a big time saver) but a reccurring NPC or one the PCs devote a lot of attention to over a long period of time. . .odds are they will not be a 2nd level night shift gate guard for ten years.