Author Topic: Worshipers and Channeling God  (Read 5125 times)

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Offline markc

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Worshipers and Channeling God
« on: October 04, 2009, 12:42:24 PM »
 In your opinion would not a deities followers buy the channeling skill to aid their god? My reasoning is this, if the skill is used to channel PP's to the god and from the god to the followers who use channeling as a magic source would want to do it in the most efficient way possible. 
 I have not checked my books this morning but I seem to remember that if you are channeling to a user you have to make a roll to see just how many PP you send and the receiver has to make a roll to see just how many they get. So if a follower does not make a good roll then the deity must be sending a lot of PP to the person assuming that they will not absorb most of the power that he/she is sending to them.

 What do you think?
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2009, 12:50:54 PM »
Not to offend anyone but. . .

I'd consider faith in and of itself to be what the diety needs. . .considering most ordinary people have few PPs. . .Going to church, or simple prayer is not normally an exhausing procedure (which having your PP sucked out would be) while participating in a channeling ritual would be. . .I'd assume the latter would be more intense than just sitting in the pews saying "amen" every now and then.

You don't need channeling, or the magical ritual skill, to provide PP in a magical ritual. . . .I think this assumes you're part of the "Chorus" not one of the main players. . .ala "You play this beat on the drum, You shake your hands over your head and repeat this chant over and over, etc etc."

Considering the worshippers are assumed to get their PP from the god, learning a skill to send it back would seem to be an inneficiant way to help out.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2009, 01:28:15 PM »
MDC, I agree with Lord Miller on this one.

You make a good point, as IMHO, rpg deities gain power from the number of devout followers; that's why they need followers. :) Yet, I don't think people need a special skill to receive power, just faith. On the other hand.. it could be assumed that their "faith skill", as it were, is strongly related to learned spell ranks..

I do think that the channeling skill could help with power burnout :), when a deity sends more than the caster can handle, it could be spread out among the clergy. This inefficiency would act to buffer the burnout, as it were. Also, it would only benefit most faiths to have their clergy develop ranks in the channeling skill just to "pool their resources". They would stand a better chance of promoting their ideals (and sometimes, this coincides with their faith.. ;)) with more PP when it's needed.

Some could make the case that Channeling PP is provided only by the god and the casters skill in PP Dev is like the efficiency that the power is used.

Now if someone wants to pose as a minor power and has ~100 channeling buddies to back them up.. well, that could be interesting.
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Offline markc

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2009, 06:37:01 PM »
 1) I do not think that channeling PP's makes you tied it just makes it harder to cast spells. Since normal people do not generally have spells they would not know if they had full PP or not.
 2) I was not thinking about PP burnout but maybe I should in this case.

 The reason why I am thinking about this again is that I think I am going to make a new spell list to include some of these concepts to replace a spell list for the cleric or maybe make it a universal list because you do not need to be a channeling user to worship a deity. In fact I might make it not even cost PP's for those who are anointed by the higher clergy. 

 Thanks and if you have any more comments please keep'em coming.
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Offline Winterknight

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 09:26:18 PM »
If we're borrowing some of the concepts from the more modern mythologies, there seems to be a rather pervasive idea that gods are in competition for the soul.  Whether it's down to two primary entities vying for control, or multiple incarnations, that seems to be a fairly common thread.

In that respect, for game terms, I agree with Lord Miller as well.  If souls are the currency for the spiritual stock market, then simply declaring them for one brand or another should lend value to the stock.  I.e. worship, in and of itself, is enough to complete the act.  One must assume that a being with that degree of power must have the ability to either convert declared  soul "energy" to raw power, or that indeed, the deities play a game amongst themselves where the power to dispense magic to followers is weighted by one's current standing within the pantheon.

If, however, we are looking at a truly polytheistic setting, where gods are considered to be real, then common people will likely pay service to ALL the gods in one form or another, to avoid offending any of them.  Then, we look to rituals, offerings, songs, prayers, and various sundry forms of worship in total, and there would seem to be a reasonable expectation that the energy derived from these offerings would be shared among the gods, otherwise competition for direct service would be more fierce.

So yeah, collectivism or capitalism, with worship or declaration of souls as the currency.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2009, 09:52:26 PM »
heh. . . .My personal variation is that Currency A and Currency B are not the same.

i.e. what the gods want, is different from what they give.

So that what the gods get from mortals is what they need, and in exchange they offer Channeling PP.

which makes the "Market" a bit more complicated.

I prefer not to look at Gods as giant electrical switchboards, collecting 1/10 of a PP from a million worshippers so they can bank 100,000 PP, 50,000 of which they then pass out to their casters. . .I have run games that way, but I've moved away from that model.
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Offline Nders

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2009, 02:54:13 AM »
There is no roll involved in determining the amount of power transferred there s however a roll involved in avoiding burnout. I consider a characters channeling skill to be a measurement of how well he connects or is in tune with his worshiped deity(s) and do not consider the channeling of power to be a two way transaction. Making it so could prove an interesting experiment though as you would likely see the various dieties vying a lot more aggressively for worshippers and power. Anyways :D the thing with channeling, and being very skilled at it, is that you can send power on to your own followers i.e. receive pp from your god and then channel them on to your own congregation. This would allow you to have congregations that had power points, received from you, and whilst they were doing your work and acting out the religious practices you present they would really need no contact with the deity actually granting the power. This would work well for Gods who operates in darkness and secrecy. Also consider the havoc you could wreck as a sole chaotic lord (rm2) granting armors and gifts, or geases, to a larger congregation of followers that really needed nothing more than the channeling skill.
You could do something similar without channeling as the spells have range and you could just cast the chaotic armor spells on your chosen subjects and then control or master them. It is almost always prefferable to have willing followers over forced ones. Also the amount of people you could have following you would almost always be greater than the amount you could control.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 06:02:08 AM »
Or purchase the Channels list to do it more reliably.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2009, 09:03:51 AM »
Two words - sola fide, faith alone.  The channeling skill implies that the caster is taking PP's from the deith in question rather than them beind given freely at the whim of the deity, i.e. divine grace. 

In other words PP's travel in one direction only.  Where the deity gets these PP's in the first place is up to the GM.  Are they like a battery charged up by worshippers or are they an infinite perc that comes with deification?  If the former than it would make evangelizing much more prolific.  It also comes up in a Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser story (god of the gallows IIRC) as well as being a recurring theme in the Erikson books.
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Offline Nders

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2009, 10:28:34 AM »
Quote
Or purchase the Channels list to do it more reliably.
Much too expensive to learn for a semi spell user and never likely to be learned to a level allowing for channeling mightier spells than well... level 1.... Ups silly me :D you are ofcourse reffering to the channels spell from Dark channels which is a Chaotic Lord base list. Anyways you cannot channel actual power points with the channels spells and thus you loose more than half the angel.

Offline markc

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2009, 01:49:40 PM »
 First IMO a deity in my world gains PP in a lot of different ways not just from his/her/its followers. But also the deity might get more PP from his followers then normal. For example a deity might get 5 PP for every worshiper and 1 PP for other things. Or some other formula as I do not think deities use the same PP that PC's do. Does that make sense?
 
 Also the act of religion involves learning and other "things". I am trying to equate that in some skill terms besides just Faith or Faith Points. So in RMSS it would be the Religion skill and in RM2/C/X it would be Lore: Religion and maybe Lore: Religion: "God/Goddess/Entity/anything I forgot to mention" and I think the Channeling skill should also be part of equation some how. Now maybe a 10th level worshiper should have only 1/2 or 1/3 there level in Channeling ranks but I do think it should be there. Does that make sense?

 PP Burn Out: I can see a Deity have some sort of ability or high level spell to transfer PP with out a problem to the end target. [There might already be something like this in SL but it have not checked my books this morning.] But I can also see a Deity having an excuse to not use this ability on a specific worshiper to burn them out if the worshiper did something very egregious or the deity was vengeful.

 Also in my game everyone gets a free rank of their chosen magic realm and a free rank in mind point development. But in games where this does not happen or in which people are not given free PP are channeling users just "non" magic users? Or are channeling spell casters non-magic users in the traditional sense but use the energy of "PP" like others do because it is simply the energy that is there?

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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2009, 03:16:57 PM »
"The gods need nothing from us. What they demand is respect. They are pleased by proper sacrifices and virtuous behavior, both of which improves the chances of your pleas to the gods being answered."

For an opposing view, here is High Priest Ontalok of the Temple of the Wheeling Stars: "The gods needs blood and hearts. Sacrifice feeds the gods and the gods feed the world. A few die so that all may live. The central ceremonies are strictly necessary to ensure the gods receive the sacrifice, but honestly, there's a lot of show that's just to keep the people happy."

In game terms, the Channeling skill is independent of the Channeling realm and you could trivially remove one from the game while keeping the other. If you must incorporate the tired gamerism (it did not originate as such, but gamers helped make it a pervasive interpretation) of gods-powered-by-mortal-followers, make it a matter of joining up and fulfilling the proper rituals, not a matter of Channeling skill, or most people won't have any "market value" in the religious sphere, which rather defeats the whole point of the model, which is to set up widespread competition with a whole lot of mini-monotheistic evangelizing churches.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2009, 05:12:52 PM »
If you must incorporate the tired gamerism (it did not originate as such, but gamers helped make it a pervasive interpretation) of gods-powered-by-mortal-followers, make it a matter of joining up and fulfilling the proper rituals, not a matter of Channeling skill, or most people won't have any "market value" in the religious sphere, which rather defeats the whole point of the model, which is to set up widespread competition with a whole lot of mini-monotheistic evangelizing churches.

Oh, yeah. Fritz Leiber did help spread the "popularity" idea of divinity.

The reason why I am thinking about this again is that I think I am going to make a new spell list to include some of these concepts to replace a spell list for the cleric or maybe make it a universal list because you do not need to be a channeling user to worship a deity. In fact I might make it not even cost PP's for those who are anointed by the higher clergy.

I do like the idea of followers having "rituals" instead of Channeling Skills or even PP. Rituals require no PP, just the time it takes to perform... and (for Channeling Realm, at least) belief in the act.
So, it shouldn't be out of the ordinary for followers of many faiths to be able to cast simple rituals! I'll have to work on this one.. One Spell List allowed to the "mundane" followers to level 3 (maybe 2nd)) and all followers are taught these when they join/grow up in the faith....

These rituals shouldn't be Marriages, Last Rites or Circles of Protection (but they could be to the knowledgeable), but simple "blessings of good will" among the faithful and basic "protections" vs the faith's antithesis might be possible. 

"The gods need nothing from us. What they demand is respect. They are pleased by proper sacrifices and virtuous behavior, both of which improves the chances of your pleas to the gods being answered."
Now an alternative view could be "Clergy" (people in charge of the dissemination of the interpretation of the faith) tell people what is what and what to do on what day, in a particular game setting. In other words, the Power may not be exactly what people believe them to be.. People just believe this based on the results; Spells, PP, etc.

All in all, a very interesting discussion on Channeling game mechanics! :)
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 07:51:44 PM »
If you can get enough followers involved, you can mack out a giant ritual indeed. . . .2,000 levels of people chanting in the temple of Kali, you might be able to tear out a heart while the sacrifice stays alive for a dip in volcanic lava.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2009, 08:07:42 PM »
Until the Indiana Gnome comes by with a whip of lofty movements and his +20 DB
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Offline providence13

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 08:10:44 PM »
...brown fedora
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2009, 08:22:25 PM »
The fedora is blatantly a cursed object. . . .fall off a cliff, climb back up, hat flies down out of the wind.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2009, 10:42:37 PM »
"The gods need nothing from us. What they demand is respect. They are pleased by proper sacrifices and virtuous behavior, both of which improves the chances of your pleas to the gods being answered."

Historically speaking there are examples to the contrairy.  The gods did need need the sacrifices.  For example in the Enuma Elish (the Sumerian version of the Flood) the reason the gods saved Utnapishtin (aka Noah) was that if the flood killed everyone then the gods would die of starvation as they wouldn't have any more sacrifices.

First IMO a deity in my world gains PP in a lot of different ways not just from his/her/its followers. But also the deity might get more PP from his followers then normal. For example a deity might get 5 PP for every worshiper and 1 PP for other things. Or some other formula as I do not think deities use the same PP that PC's do. Does that make sense?

What if there was a plague decimating the populace and the followers of the god followed by a glut of priests needing power points for healing spells but the deity was 'short' as his followers are dead so some simply don't get them, unless their channeling skill brought them to the 'front of the line' so to speak.

But in general - do you really want to track all that?

Also the act of religion involves learning and other "things". I am trying to equate that in some skill terms besides just Faith or Faith Points. So in RMSS it would be the Religion skill and in RM2/C/X it would be Lore: Religion and maybe Lore: Religion: "God/Goddess/Entity/anything I forgot to mention" and I think the Channeling skill should also be part of equation some how. Now maybe a 10th level worshiper should have only 1/2 or 1/3 there level in Channeling ranks but I do think it should be there. Does that make sense?

Kind of.  You want the priest to work for his PP's.  What if instead of using the channeling skill in order to get PP's used religion lore as a requirement for PP's or spell casting?  For example you need 5 ranks in religion to cast 5th level spells. 

PP Burn Out: I can see a Deity have some sort of ability or high level spell to transfer PP with out a problem to the end target. [There might already be something like this in SL but it have not checked my books this morning.] But I can also see a Deity having an excuse to not use this ability on a specific worshiper to burn them out if the worshiper did something very egregious or the deity was vengeful.

Ick - giving skills and stats to gods, very Deities & Demigods-ish.

I can see using power burn to show displeasure in extreme cases.  Limiting PP or spell casting in general also works.  But do you really want to create divine spells/skills to accomplish it?

Also in my game everyone gets a free rank of their chosen magic realm and a free rank in mind point development. But in games where this does not happen or in which people are not given free PP are channeling users just "non" magic users? Or are channeling spell casters non-magic users in the traditional sense but use the energy of "PP" like others do because it is simply the energy that is there?

If I am reading this correctly, I feel that channeling energy is simply 'there' for the character to draw upon much like essence magic. The difference is that the souce of the energy is sentient and fickle.  In effect avoiding the 'channeling spell casing as divine intervention' model, i.e. it is the deity casting the spells through the character, as much as possible.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline mocking bird

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2009, 10:54:35 PM »
This example just made me think of a problem with making the channeling skill a necessary skill for spell casting.

If you can get enough followers involved, you can mack out a giant ritual indeed. . . .2,000 levels of people chanting in the temple of Kali, you might be able to tear out a heart while the sacrifice stays alive for a dip in volcanic lava.

Using this from a gaming pov, were each of the worshippers there channeling power to the high priest?  If so they therefore had to have power points and be spell casters themselves.  Or is channeling an innate ability?  Was the high priest merely being vampric drawing power points?   
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline Marc R

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Re: Worshipers and Channeling God
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2009, 11:56:38 PM »
With a magical ritual, you can contribute levels, or PPs or both by participating.

It's more like group casting, focused on the central figure, who's usually the highest level participant in the group.

There's no channeling rolls involved, though there are rampant inneficiancies involved. . .but it's one of those things where if you only get 5% of 2,000 total levels of casting ability, it's still plenty.


The Channeling skill itself, while far cheaper for channelers, is not restricted to them. . .though the mentalists do it far easier with "Merge with Mentalist" than the skill. (Isn't there an essence version for covens or guilds?).

Channeling burnout would offer a lot of dangers. . .you'd lose people in the parish every week.


For a group of casters, especially with LOS it can be quite nasty. . .A good for instance would be Celedor the Paladin, rides out of the city to face an Ordainer Moloch. . . .while 200 priests and priestesses line the city wall. . .

During the battle, the inner circle of high level casters on the tower roof are using channeling skill to send high level healing and buff spells to the paladin, a mile distant but still visible, as he fights. . . .linked via the Channel opening spell, they have constant, exact location information so they can keep popping effects off using the skill, which at their level, is very effective.

All the lower level casters just sit there sending PP up to the high level casters so they can keep going.

Odds are, you'll loose a bunch of casters to burnout and casting failures, but amongst a horde of healing casters using non attack spells, likely no big deal.


Turning around to make use of the channeling skill for non casters. . .non casters pay a lot. . .like 20 DP for one rank or more in some cases. . . .for a 5% chance. . .and 5% efficiancy, meaning for every 20 points sent, 1 point is received. . .how many non casters have 20 PP? I don't think any non casting class can double rank in it to learn it fast.

So unless you say "The Temple is a +50 channeling skill bonus item" or "Touch gives a +50 bonus to channeling skill checks" it's not going to really work with the skill as written.
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