Author Topic: Culture/society level questions  (Read 3537 times)

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Offline Mhairtrym

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Culture/society level questions
« on: April 14, 2009, 11:42:27 AM »
Greetings,

Been messing around with my ole central casting fastasy book.  Old Gm got me hooked on it years ago(Poor book has Definately seen better days).  Those of you familiar with it know it has a section at 102: which is choosing the Culture level, primitive, nomad, barbarian, civilized, and finally decadent civilized.

So rolling up some background for a SW character, I had decadent civilized and I began pondering which societies in SW fit that description.   Just to throw a little more into it, this particular character was an Elf.  Obviously the product was very generic but still thought should be able to come up with something close.

hmm what about barbarian anything specific pop to mind?  I think along the clans in J.V. Jones Black ice book. (forgot the new series name)

Anyhow I figured I was not the only one who sometimes needs a jump start to get a background started, be it NPC or PC.

Offline Mhairtrym

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 01:41:48 PM »
Perhaps I am the only one who uses the Central casting Heroes of legend book.  But in any case given this definition:

Decadent Civilized Cultures
These are Civilized cultures past the peak of their prime.  Decay has begun to set in at all levels and the people have become hedonistic and jaded.  The government seems to have become self-perpetuating and careless of the people's needs.  Although goverment support of the Poor is predominant, previously common civil liberties and services begin to disappear.  Inflation is often ramant.  Historical Examples include: the latter centuries of the Roman empire.

I am not sure if such a cultures exists in Kulthea, but if it does, which ones?

Offline vroomfogle

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 08:58:21 AM »
I've never heard of this book, it sounds interesting.   Is it an old book and who is the publisher?

Offline Mhairtrym

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 09:57:02 AM »
Ummm pretty old I have had mine since the late 80's early 90's right after I left the Military.  GM brought it to a RM game and used it to come up with our backgrounds what was kinda funny was everyone had a religion entry.  Author was Paul Jaquays, what made me bring it up here was a mention of it in another part of formum.  Obviously it is generic but it gets your thoughts going in a direction and helps coming up with backgrounds.  They had a Hero style or modern style one as well which I never got.

Here is a link for amazon http://www.amazon.com/Central-Casting-Heroes-Paul-Jaquays/dp/0922335001

Geez people want alot of money for these things, I am guessing it is in better condition than mine  ;D , as pages are falling out and so forth.  Now my collection of MERP2 books are in great condition and seem to be posted with high prices like this as well.  Too bad their is 2 I did not get.

Offline Elrik

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 11:44:49 AM »
I haven't read the J.V. Jones books.

I think Barbarian is relative to the person pointing.

If you live in Haalkitaine, then anyone from outside those lands could be a Barbarian (Japanese style), or anyone from a "less evolved" society could very well be that Barbarian. Those wandering tribes in Zor would fit the title of Barbarian. Wuliris and many parts of Saralis, even U-Lyshak and Ly-Aran and Xa-ar are full of filthy Barbarians! Although I doubt the Barbarians call themselves that.

Then there are the Mountain tribes, Lugroki, Murlogy, Urulan, Tanara and those Barbarians in Ja'Miil Targ.

At the same time the D?ranaki pretty much think they are the Be all End all and could very well dismiss everyone as Barbarians.

This is, of course, a very General view of the Barbarian. Various levels of a Society have differing views of the "outsiders". I always envision the average Noble with a laughing sneer as he/she discuss the barbarians. The serfs could fallow the nobles unless they have a different experience.

I try to discourage the word Barbarian, and encourage something like Krikkrin (frost+eater) for the northern tribes, I want it on par with the derogatory *eskimo. Originally I used Bone Sucker, referring to the habit of sucking the marrow out of an animal's bones. I eventually stopped as my parties would rather debate porn then play.

I haven't touched on the arrogance of the elves when looking down upon other cultures...

*When I first learned of the word eskimo I was informed that it meant Meat Eater, and was intended to be insulting. That was 30 years ago...

Thanks for the 20 minute escape from work - Mondays!!!!

Elrik
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Mhairtrym

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2009, 10:14:33 PM »
Thanks Elrik  :)
    Was more looking from the perspective given a specific definition like the one I used for Decadent civilized, do any existing cultures fit.  Barbarian I dropped as I think it would be easier to match up, I would type out the specific definition but my book is upstairs and I am lazy.  :P The answer might just be that no cultures in Shadow world fit the definition of Decadent civilized, in which case if I used the Central casting book in the future I would just extend the civilized culture to overlap.  Obviously a generic book is not going to fit every world. 

As for J.V. Jones I highly recommend her books, I think the first one I read was the fortress of black ice, if you do read it you will see one of the cultures called the clans, which I feel fits the definition for barbarian inside the central casting book.  However if you have not read the book, you will have no clue what I am referring to  ;D  I am currently reading her first series of books, starting with the Baker's boy.  The first one was not as good as the Fortress of Black Ice, IMHO.  But second book in that series is seems better.  She has very deep and interesting characters.  anyhow back to the main subject.

I might post the other definitions from the Central casting book tomorrow when I have the book with me, and people could throw out cultures they see fit one or another.  They were Primitive, Nomad, Barbarian, Civilized, and Decadent Civilized.


Offline Hawkwind

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 02:16:59 AM »
The answer might just be that no cultures in Shadow world fit the definition of Decadent civilized,

I would think both Rhakaan (certainly Haalkitane, if not the whole empire) and Sel Kai would fit that description.

Hawk

Offline Elrik

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2009, 10:47:21 AM »
Sorry Dood, I just love Barbarians. I am one you know.

I don't think Sel Kay and Rhakhaan have a sophisticated enough legal system and enough free time to have become truly Decadent.

Facets of these two complex societies speak very loudly of Decadents; the wealth, the boredom and the abuses that go with that. Still there is no Magna Carta, no Bill of Rights, no Constitution and no laws that protect the weak and poor. The Poor work long and hard days just to make ends meet. The Nobles and Wealthy work what they want, and as they wish. The middle class is more theory then practise.

The biggest shunt to this is that most societies in the Shadow World function with two levels; Wealthy/Nobles and the lower class. Of course that breaks down further but I will spare that for today. For as far back as we can read most of these societies have behaved this way.

I also think that as long as these two "Nations" have a direction they will be vibrant and in someways Soulful. The Empire and Sel Kay still have a vibrancy, are still a bastion of sanity in a World faced with horrible challenges.

So speaking of The Empire and Sel Kay, no, not quite yet. And I am unaware of any other nations that are much different.

Of course this could simply be my game World concept running head long into your question.

E
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Mhairtrym

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 10:59:15 AM »
Yep that was my take as well, they would better fit civilized and not quite there for Decadent.  When I get home I guess I will post up the other descriptions.  I was wondering if the new merchant kingdom from Thuul or someplace else might better fit. 

Yeah of course depending on how i wanted to shift my own version of shadow world I could come up with those better fitting.  But at the moment I am still just looking to see if any of the basic concepts for existing cultures fit. 

Offline Mhairtrym

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 05:20:52 PM »
Here is the definitions for the generic cultures as laid out in Central casting.

Primitive
Primitives do not read and write their own langauge and do not form significant permanent settlements.  The chief industry of primitives is the procurement of food, usually by hunting(traditionally a male role) and gathering(traditionally women, children and the elderly).  They do not work metal and organized farming is still rare.  Political units are the family and the clan.  Rulers are the most powerful hunters of the group.  The elderly are revered for thier wisdom.  Historical Primitives include most prehistoric peoples, many Amerindians, Artic tribes, Australian aborigines, African bushmen and pygmies. Fictional example includes J.R.R. Tolkiens Woses.

Nomads
Nomads rely heavily on livestock that can move as seasons and resources dictateand are rarely agricultural.  Most Nomads are mounted or use beasts of burden to trasnport belongings.  Nomads organize along family group lines, do not settle permanently, and do not develope abstract writing beyond the level of pictographs.  In most Nomand tribes and clans, all adult males are warriors.  The Nomads may also be skilled in other crafts or professions (rarely metal working), but skill in combat is a necessity for survival.  Examples of historic Nomadic cultures include: Bedoouins, ancient Huns, Gypsies, Sioux and other plains Indians and Afghan shepherds.  Fictional J.R.R. Tolkiens Easterlings.

So for Shadow World I think the Rhiani tribes fit this.

Barbarian
Barbarians are generally thought of as crude and semi-literate.  In fact, they are not.  Barbarian cultures are dynamic, often highly educated societies with a keen sense of propriety and law and order.  In a sense, they are pre-civilized - Organized but not yet developed(or degenerated) to the point where central goverments are needed.  They normally have a solid economy with defined division of labor (occupational specialization).  Organized religion is often a central pillar of their society (and may dominate it).  Barbarians are generally led by strong charismatic warriors,   but much of the people are governed by extended family groupings such as clans.  Like the Nomads, most adult males are warriors in addition to any other profession that they follow (although, like the Vikings, they may put this skill to work pillaging as opposed to warring).  They may live in small cities, which are often not much more than semipermanent camps.  Historical examples include feudal Europe (period of Charlemagne), Guals, Vikings, pre-19th century Iroquois and Cherokee Indian tribes.  Fictional J.R.R. Rohirrim.

For Shadow World hmm How about the people of Xa-ar and some of the Emer cultures.

Civilized
Civilized cultures are most often noted for central goverments (which seem to exist solely for the purpose of colecting taxes) and large cities and stocked with the dubious benifits of civilization - Table manners, royal dynasties, wizards, professional thieves, naval warfare, civil engineering and of course, tax accountants.  The hereditary warrior classes have become landed gentlefolk as knights and samurai are replaced by paid soldiery.  Historical examples include: Persian and Early Roman empires, Imperial China, Selenium kingdom, dynastic Egypt, fuedal Japan, the Incan empire.  Fictional example J.R.R. Tolkien's Gondoreans.

In Shadow World I think the Rhakkaan empire, Sel-Kai, and Namar-Tol, Stroane are examples.


So those are the difinitions I was going by.

Offline lev_lafayette

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Re: Culture/society level questions
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2009, 08:06:48 AM »
These example social formations also make their appearance in RuneQuest (3rd edition). They're pretty much straight out of the 19th century evolutionary anthropology of Lewis Morgan. FWIW.
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