Topic: Why talents are necessary

[Dark Schneider]

I MAKE my chars play the flaws they buy with BO Points.  Otherwise, they will recieve an XP penalty.

That is more exact, as flaws allow to choose more talents, they MUST be played, if not, GMs perfectly can remove that flaw to character and the talent points too, losing some talents.

If flaws are rewarded, then they are not really flaws, and constant flaws as blindness can be problematic, because is used constantly, how many XPs a character gain with this flaw?.

I see more correct using a versatile talent point system, so for example if you gain a flaw in an adventure, you gain talent points to buy talents, not XP, and when you 'cure' flaws you must pay it in talent points or in XP, usually XP should be used because I think noone want to lose talents, and is more realistic because if you adquire some abilities (talents) is more rare to lose them than retarding the next level.

The rule is easy, you can convert XP->talent points, but not in the other direction.

[arakish]

We allowed Characters to buy off Flaws with the Talent Points they gained with XP levels.  However, they had to give a good explaination or, more accurately, role played the buy off of a Flaw.  Also they had to role play the gaining of a Talent.

We gave Characters TPs as follows:

For every level above 1, characters gain +1 TP, with an additional +1 TP at every fifth level (5, 10, 15, etc.).  Characters may accumulate TPs, spending them when desired.  If wanted, a Character may turn over the TPs to the GM for mystery spending.  Just because one Flaw is bought off does not mean that that Flaw may not become another Flaw.

For example, quoted from my site,

Remember, one flaw may be bought off with another flaw.

Example: If you have a Lesser Dependent (for -5 BOPnts) and that Lesser Dependent is killed, then you may in turn buy a Lesser Vow (-3 BOPnts; to kill Lesser Dependent's murderer).

Of course, this combo would give you 2 BOPnts.

But, if you decide on the Minor Vow (-7 BOPnts) and spend two accumulated BOPnts, this is also acceptable.

Losing a flaw does not necessarily mean you do not gain another flaw.

rmfr

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

This thread is very interesting.

As far as i am concerned, i determine flaws when creating a character according to what the the player says : "i want to play a knght, he has firm religious beliefs, follows a strict code of honor and feels a strong sense of duty towards its land and folk. He is also a good horseman and is knowledgeable in tactics."

I then pick talents, status and flaws. Remaining points are spent for money, items and perhaps some rolls on talents and flaws but i am the only one who decides if it is suitable for the character.

However, some things i read here are really interesting and i will probably modify the way i handle talents & flaws in game.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Wow! Just had a thought....

It has been discussed before about charging DP for talents. And most folks tend to think of Flaws as costing negative points (i.e. the player gets some back).

How about this.......

Charge DPs for Flaws as well as Talents.

For example, Tough Skin (lizard-like - +2 AT) might cost 10 DP and then take the flaw, Unique Looks and have it cost the player 2 DP instead of him getting 2 DP back for taking it.

Let me finish before you have that embolism.....

We have already discuss the possibility that Flaws give bonus XP or DP later on down the road, when characters level up.

So, we set up a scaling system (5 levels) about how often talents/flaws come into play/impact the story lines. Thus giving a bonus of 1-5 DP because of the impact. (some levels this will be greater, and some levels this will be fewer).

Instead of doing individual awards, all talents/flaws are judged accordingly as a group. This allows for somebody who takes very few talents/flaws to get the same chances of getting the bonus DP as somebody who takes a lot (note: the guy who takes a lot is more likely to get more of the Bonus DP in the long run, but not in overwhelming amounts).

As for the reason for paying for flaws, that is simple, since you are getting the chance of Bonus DP at almost every single level, there has to be an initial cost to help offset the bonuses.

Am I making any sense here?

(hmm.... I may have to work something up for one of the HB's to give this a trial run)

[Arioch]

It seems an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if I've understood correctly this part:

Instead of doing individual awards, all talents/flaws are judged accordingly as a group.

Does it means that a PC is going to receive the same DP bonus either if just one or all of his flaws came into play?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

It would mean that impact of his flaws (no matter how many are involved) upon the story determine the award level of the Bonus DP.

It does mean that those with more flaws are more likely to have those flaws have a greater impact overall, but this is not always going to be the case.

[David Johansen]

I'd much prefer a fixed number of DPs per level because it makes reverse engineering a character much easier.

Generally, I look at roleplaying awards of XP as being specifically there to reward playing flaws.  Or rather if you don't play your flaws you won't be seeing any roleplaying XP bonus.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Rasyr, i honestly do not think it is a good idea. Sure the mechanic is fine (as always).

But it would be better for a character to aquire talents and flaws through roleplaying.

Example A)

A character is caught in a dire situation where he must fight or die. The fight becomes realy intense and properly horrible but at last the character survives. Now, if the character's usual behaviour is overall gentle and non-vioent, the GM could decide the fight put him upon more stress than he can cope with and decides to roll for insanity. Too bad, from now one, the character suffers from blood guilt until he is cured.

Example B)

A human character travels with a band of dwarves for several months. He gets used to their habits and ways of doing thing in such a way that he ends up learning a lot of things. I'd say it could be represented by a racial training.


what i try to say is that each and every talent or flaw should be classified in categories akin to the way you obtain them : innate (at birth), psychological (can be obtained based on the behaviour of the character), aquired (characters must receive a training), obtained through a wound, given as a gift by a god orother supernatural power and so on... Add requisites (minimum stat bonuses, training time, race, other talents or flaws) in order to regulate access to the talents and flaws and handle them as "special status" for the characters rather then part of the character development.

This way one could monitor talents and flaws in character evolutions likemarkers from past events. It also give depth to the characters.
Like you present it, it really feels like just another part devoted to character optimization. (But still, i may misunderstand your meaning.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

David - the same principle applies as the one I described for using DPs as for awarding extra XP -- again you  get the same basic principle (specific awards based upon the level of impact), but with XP.

what i try to say is that each and every talent or flaw should be classified in categories akin to the way you obtain them

No. There are many talents and flaws that could be obtained in any number of ways. If we try to classify them based on how they are obtained, then we are reducing the ability to use them to their fullest.

And I think that perhaps you did misunderstand what I was saying above...

My suggestion was that both talents and flaws require that the player SPEND points for them to acquire. That that is no immediate return for taking a flaw, and that any such return for flaws (be it XP or DP) is up to the GM to determine based upon the impact it has.

That making any sense?

Example:
Joe is making his character. He has 50 DP to spend total (based upon the starting level the GM said to begin at). He decides to buy some talents and flaws. He spends 10 DP to get the "Tough Skin" talent. He also spends another 5 points to get the "Unique Looks" flaw. This leaves him 35 points to spend on skills.

After play begins, the flaw, Unique Looks, has a large impact on play during every session where the PCs are in any sort of town, city or village. Therefore the GM awards Joe an extra 500 XP for each of those sessions as the flaw does have an impact.

[Arioch]

But it would be better for a character to aquire talents and flaws through roleplaying.

IMHO even using this system you could always do that. Let's say that your character lose a hand during a fight. When he gains a level you can spend some DPs to gain the "one-handed" flaw, thus gaining XP bonus from it. If you don't spend the DPs you're still obviously without a hand, but you don't gain any XP from it. Later on, if the character is cured you'll gain no more bonus XP because the flaw never come into play...
Is this going to work like this?

[Dark Schneider]

Personally I don't like to reward with XP the flaws, this can create unbalanced gaming, becasue some players can have flaws that gives them a lot of XP that other players haven't, this can increase the level diference between players in a not natural way.

But it would be better for a character to aquire talents and flaws through roleplaying.

Example A)

A character is caught in a dire situation where he must fight or die. The fight becomes realy intense and properly horrible but at last the character survives. Now, if the character's usual behaviour is overall gentle and non-vioent, the GM could decide the fight put him upon more stress than he can cope with and decides to roll for insanity. Too bad, from now one, the character suffers from blood guilt until he is cured.

I really like it more, in this example, TP (Talent Points) obtained with that flaw (adjusting with XP by 1000 XP = 1 TP) should/could be spent by player in a berserk skill bonus, increase OB/HP, etc. talents as he has improved his combat skills by surviving that situation (the one gives him the flaw).

In the other hand, I'd like to say that adquirirng talents by XP (as CL says) is usefull to evade the RM problem that for non-spell users the high levels are not very important because the low increase (+0'5) of skill ranks at those levels. So when we have our skills with the desired number of ranks (usually 30), we can begin to adquire talents that are more beneficial.
For example a high-level fighter can increase his OB by adquiring or improving the 'weapon expertise' talent.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

That making any sense?

Example:
Joe is making his character. He has 50 DP to spend total (based upon the starting level the GM said to begin at). He decides to buy some talents and flaws. He spends 10 DP to get the "Tough Skin" talent. He also spends another 5 points to get the "Unique Looks" flaw. This leaves him 35 points to spend on skills.

After play begins, the flaw, Unique Looks, has a large impact on play during every session where the PCs are in any sort of town, city or village. Therefore the GM awards Joe an extra 500 XP for each of those sessions as the flaw does have an impact.

It makes sense. I did not quite grasp the long terme impact of flaws the way you intended.

Worth to give it a try.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Personally I don't like to reward with XP the flaws, this can create unbalanced gaming, becasue some players can have flaws that gives them a lot of XP that other players haven't, this can increase the level diference between players in a not natural way.

Which is why I was suggesting NOT having individual XP awards, but having "Impact Awards" (5 levels of awards, 100 XP per level of impact).

With Impact Awards, you could have one guy who takes a lot of flaws end up getting the smallest Impact Award because almost none of his flaws have any impact upon the game that session. You could also have another guy who has but a single flaw that has a huge impact on the session. And in the next session, the impact issues could be reversed.

But it would be better for a character to aquire talents and flaws through roleplaying.

Example A)

A character is caught in a dire situation where he must fight or die. The fight becomes realy intense and properly horrible but at last the character survives. Now, if the character's usual behaviour is overall gentle and non-vioent, the GM could decide the fight put him upon more stress than he can cope with and decides to roll for insanity. Too bad, from now one, the character suffers from blood guilt until he is cured.

I really like it more, in this example, TP (Talent Points) obtained with that flaw (adjusting with XP by 1000 XP = 1 TP) should/could be spent by player in a berserk skill bonus, increase OB/HP, etc. talents as he has improved his combat skills by surviving that situation (the one gives him the flaw).

1) This example says nothing about the player receiving TP or XP or DP in return for the flaw. Don't assume.

2) I strongly disagree with this example, UNLESS the player agrees to it in advance. Otherwise, this is an example of a GM controlling a player's character by imposing something that the player may not want and that is something that I am against.

[Cory Magel]

The biggest issue I have with the whole XP thing is that, as I mentioned in another thread, I don't use XP. So if a system like this became 'official' I think you'd possibly still need to assign alternate values based on how talents and flaws work in RM now for those of us that work like that.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The biggest issue I have with the whole XP thing is that, as I mentioned in another thread, I don't use XP. So if a system like this became 'official' I think you'd possibly still need to assign alternate values based on how talents and flaws work in RM now for those of us that work like that.

If you do not use XP, then what do you use?

First off, let me point out that any options need to be, first and foremost, written for the core, not for other options (if at all possible, writing options for specific options should be avoided). The core uses XPs to determine level, so, the option for flaws should stick with XP awards since that is core.

Now, I would likely not do something like for  RMSS/FRP since it already contains a talent/flaw system. I  might do it for HARP or RMC, since those two systems do not have flaws introduced yet. And might possibly do it for a RM revision at some point down the road.

As for writing options for other methods of doing this, unless it is a method that is enumerated within a book dealing with the line, then I would have to say no. Any GM who deviates from the core method of doing things, or from official options, is going to have to figure out how to adapt it to his game on his own if he wants to use it.

[PiXeL01]

Personally I would like to keep flaws out of the picture since there are always some people who will try to abuse them. There are holes in every system and people will try to find them to boost their characters, well at least if their play havent matured yet that is. I made a choice a few years ago to exclude whatever flaw system there was in whatever game I played but kept the Talents. The only exception is RM2`s background options both from Character Law and Companion I. They seemed both doable and manageble in the way they were writing, since they mostly toyed with game mechanics. Easier to control them too I guess.

That said, the reward system Rasyr suggested does show some merit. Personally I could see the reward as additional DP instead of XP, without it would move RMC away from its xp roots. It would definitely promote the players to remind the GM of their flaws instead of trying to hide them away. Or maybe some of my players just havent matured mentally enough to get away from the whole min/max, munchin, exploit thing completely to just make up characters that would be interesting to play

[yammahoper]

It is easy to convert exp to dev points, if a set base of dev points per level is assumed.  To keep the math suimple, I assume 100 dev per level.  Just divided the dev into the exp needed for the next level, and poof, you have a workable ratio.

lynn

[Dark Schneider]

But yet I see the problem that it can 'obsess' to players, and as they receive rewards players maybe are more dedicated to play their flaws than play their ROLE, looking for any oportunity to play flaws.

And I personally think that any thing that causes 'obsession' in a game should be suppresed for a good play with no worry. Other example of this is clearly an overpowered 'spell mastery', a very discussed topic, so these must be removed for a good role playing IMO. Generally anything that a player think about 'I MUST do' or 'I MUST have' in rules, obviously any player can have their own goals so they can have some 'I MUST', but not rules dependant.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Which is why such a system would be limited in how many bonus XP could be awarded through this system.

The idea is to encourage the playing of interesting character without allowing for gaming of the system or 'obsessing' over a part of the system as you put it.

[PiXeL01]

I fear there is no way to avoid the people, who will do what ever they can to abuse, manipulate and squeeze what ever advantage out of the game to their advantage. Some people are just like that, pushing to be the most powerful and exploitive person around, instead of creation and acting out fun and interesting ideas and characters. A highly rigid rule set around flaws and other things will not change that, it will just make them look ever so hardy or abandon the table.

Make the rules instead fairly open for interpretation so the GMs themselves can decide how to put it into play. Throw a high number of usage options for suggestions and then let them set it up to fill their own needs and limitations.

I dont know why people think it is only flaws and skills that makes a character unique. IT isnt. These only to provide a number of tools to the character. It all comes down to the personallity of the character. Of course if someone cant or wont play anyother personallity, but changes profession, name, race and so on then well ...