Topic: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?

[bpowell]

Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.

And of course there needs to be an inn!  - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it 
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).

I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.

As to size I think we are looking at just like 300 living in the town in actuality, with the rest of the population i quoted in  20 mile radius.  Is this what we are look at?

I must admit to not having a depth of knowledge on Xa-Ar, so I would love all the help I can get in that area.  I was thinking that they would get one to two caravans a month during the peak travel times in the year (summer).  This would mean that four to five wagons per caravan.  I love the idea of the Innkeeper making cheese or the like.  Also, I have been rolling around the idea in my mind (lots of room in there) about his wife being the local "apothecary".  While that is too strong of a word.  While she is above knowing this herb makes a good tea for settling the stomach.  She only raises a handful of herbs in her garden, mostly for consumption of her family and neighbors.  I have postulated that the Sister helped the Innkeepers wife through her last pregnancy and has stayed on in town as a semi-permanent guest in the inn.

I do not see any case for tourism currently.  It is just a larger than normal town.  But as our adventurers start poking around they might find things that would bring academics or religious pilgrims from Rapata.  But that of course might bring in some unwanted attention from raiders.

-BP

[bpowell]

Great work! Good progress. I'm happy to see that this thread is doing so good. I have been reading the posts, but have not had time to comment as I'm abroad on a project. I agree with some of the other comments regarding the size, 800 might be a bit too large for the area. I don't see the highway so heavily trafficked that it would sustain the economy of a village. In my view of Xa-ar at least, it's not so densely populated and trade is not very active. I would think that farming, fishing and (mining) constitute the majority of the economy. The highway and tourism it brings would add another source of income though, but more as a side business. More importantly, the highway brings extra flavour and endless adventure possibilities.

And of course there needs to be an inn!  - what would a starter module be without an inn? Heck, the man himself created a whole sourcebook around it 
but as jdale pointed out, maybe the innkeeper needs another major source of income (like tavern keeping, he/she could be a teacher by day, keeper of a herb garden, cheese maker, the possibilities are endless).

I like the ideas on religion. If fishing and farming are the major sources of income, worship of Neela and Iloura seem logical. I also like the idea of a sister of Ginh Tarn who acts as a midwife/doctor.

I am also a Director in a Multi-million, multi-national company, but I do not know that makes me a good candidate for the editor.  I have written documents and manuals for technical material, but that again does not make me a hands down candidate for "editor".  I think what this needs is someone with time to put into keeping all of the pieces and parts in line.  Arc, if that is you....sounds wonderful.

-BP

[Arc]

I'm just volunteering at this stage, if someone else feels strongly about managing this project I'm more than happy to step aside.

The idea is to get going on a first intro module (hopefully introducing new GMs and players to SW and possibly RMU as well). We hope that this will develop into a full adventure path with 5-10 modules, but at this stage we are focusing on getting the first module done. The setting will be a small town in Xa-ar.

So please let us know if you are interested in participating to this work in some way, and how you would like to contribute.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bpowell]

Volunteer away... we need to start moving forward or nothing will get done.  I did not mean it to sound like I had an objection. 

-BP

[egdcltd]

I'm thinking that we should also probably have a few hamlets or thorpes in the nearby area. Perhaps with some minor defences, but the residents might evacuate to the town if necessary.

[bpowell]

You just hit on the issue I have come up with defense.  I am thinking a wall made of stone.  Most males in the town would be required to train with a weapon (Spear or the like) and have it in the home.  But in recent times this has slacked of with the feeling of extended peace.

I was thinking groupings of farming huts together in the areas north of town.  Is this what you were thinking for a Hamlet?

-BP

[egdcltd]

Although a stone wall would be the most effective, I'm not sure the settlement is really big enough or wealthy enough to afford one. A ditch, earth mound and wooden palisade may be all they can manage. If the town has been sacked in the past, any better defences may have been destroyed; there could be the odd bit of stone wall or tower remaining.

The hamlets, yes, probably several farm or other buildings clustered together for mutual support. I think most hamlets tended to focused on one particular "industry" so there could be farming, mining or fruit growing hamlets for example. These might have a simple wooden barricade around them, without a ditch or a mound.

[Witchking20k]

They would likely have built the town around an existing place of strength (a keep or tower) and retreat in to it in times of need.  Perhaps the local mayor governs out of it- or one of the Inns is actually a converted keep.   Xa'ar is "occupied" to a degree so I think defence to maintain sovereignty at least would be required.  In fact many of the locals could have abandoned independant farmsteads and retreated to the protection of the keep/tower and thus the town sprung up recently.

[bpowell]

Although a stone wall would be the most effective, I'm not sure the settlement is really big enough or wealthy enough to afford one. A ditch, earth mound and wooden palisade may be all they can manage. If the town has been sacked in the past, any better defences may have been destroyed; there could be the odd bit of stone wall or tower remaining.

The hamlets, yes, probably several farm or other buildings clustered together for mutual support. I think most hamlets tended to focused on one particular "industry" so there could be farming, mining or fruit growing hamlets for example. These might have a simple wooden barricade around them, without a ditch or a mound.

I am not thinking a stone wall like you might see on an English castle.  There the stones are fitted and held in place by a mortar.  Here I was thinking that the stone that had been moved during the building of the town would be piled up and held in place with a  simple mud mortar.  OF course, I was thinking the area is a bit rocky.  If it is more heavily wooded then a wooden palisade is more appropriate.  They would use what they had.  I also set this on a stream or a small river.  Too small to be on most maps but it would run year round.  This would be  source of fresh water, food and power.

[bpowell]

They would likely have built the town around an existing place of strength (a keep or tower) and retreat in to it in times of need.  Perhaps the local mayor governs out of it- or one of the Inns is actually a converted keep.   Xa'ar is "occupied" to a degree so I think defence to maintain sovereignty at least would be required.  In fact many of the locals could have abandoned independant farmsteads and retreated to the protection of the keep/tower and thus the town sprung up recently.

I was trying to stay away from sites like this.  I was thinking that they are so minor in the political spectrum that the wars have passed over them.  Crops have been burned and buildings razed, but both sides know if you kill the peasants you stop food production and then you starve.  The town might have been raided a few times but nothing major.  The wall keeps "honest raiders honest".  So to speak and stops wild animals from attacking kids and livestock.  I was thinking that the "Inn" might have thick walls and the ability to house a large portion of the population during a raid (at least the women and children)

If there was a tower here or some form of keep the raiders would not leave, but use it as a base of operations.  Since these are peasants they are only a bit above the subsistence living, there are not libraries or the like in town (except perhaps in private homes).  The economy is mostly barter with the few coins brought in per year on trade and selling surplus is used to buy new manufactured goods from Rapata (A plow, some new blacksmith supplies etc).

Too high up on the economic standard and they would become targets.  This is what i see as the start of the adventures.  Some new deposits in the hills, the town is getting more income.  Adventurers come to town and it starts to grow.  The fame spreads and raiders come, etc.

Agree?  Disagree?

-BP

[jdale]

Castles & Ruins gives the cost of walls and construction times as:

6" thick wooden palisade 10' tall, 10' wide: 8 days labor, 3 bp
12" thick: 12 days labor, 5 bp
6" thick wooden construction wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 20 days, 8 bp
12" thick: 30 days, 12 bp
6" thick stone wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 68 days, 61 bp
12" thick" 80 days, 72 bp

A Magical Medieval Society suggests a population density of 30-40 adults/acre for a small town. Call that 80-100 people/acre. So that puts a settlement of 850 people around 9.5 acres. When I ask Wolfram-Alpha for the circumference of a circle that size, it gives me 2280'. Let's suppose the village has grown and spills past its walls a bit, so maybe 1500' -- that actually only encloses half the town, 4.1 acres. That means:

A 6" thick wooden palisade took 1200 man-days to build, costing 450 bp (4.5 gold). A 12" one took 1800 days.
A 6" thick wooden construction wall took 3000 man-days, costing 1200 bp (12 gold). A 12" one took 4500 days and 1800 bp.
A 6" thick stone wall took 10,200 man-days, costing 9,150 bp (91 gold).

Even the palisade is a pretty significant investment of time and manpower. People would certainly do it if the village is sufficiently threatened. The stone wall is a huge investment, though, you have to really believe it's going to make a difference to build something like that, and you have to plan it far in advance -- even if the whole town is working on it, it will take months, and then they aren't producing any food, so actually it takes years. You can cut corners to some extent on less sturdy construction but a lot of it is just getting stone to the site. It's not totally out of the question, but it's the value of ~15 decent horses. You could build a 5' wall for half that, but invaders could climb over it pretty easily. Also, you need gates and some kind of supports - could be buildings, towers, buttresses. So these estimates are actually low.

Alternatively, you could have a small fort for people to retreat to. Or, less militaristic, you could have one solid stone structure that the town can retreat into. Historically it would probably be a stone church, not sure for Xa'ar. A religious building is less likely to be seized and used as a base by bandits, I would think. An actual fort does seem like it is asking for trouble.

Another alternative is to have partial walls. You might have a gate and stone walls on the side you expect attacks from, and palisades elsewhere, especially if there is rough terrain. This could also happen if there is (or was) a desire for stone fortifications but it's not finished yet or they gave up on it. Having different areas with different strength defenses is not great tactically, but it does mean you can declare that one section can be
defended by NPCs while there is some smaller area which a smaller flanking force of enemies might come through, that can be held by the PCs.

Narratively, you also might want to start with a smaller less-fortified village that can be dramatically destroyed and the inhabitants flee to a somewhat larger better-defended village.  Depends where you are going with the story.

[bpowell]

Castles & Ruins gives the cost of walls and construction times as:

6" thick wooden palisade 10' tall, 10' wide: 8 days labor, 3 bp
12" thick: 12 days labor, 5 bp
6" thick wooden construction wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 20 days, 8 bp
12" thick: 30 days, 12 bp
6" thick stone wall 10' tall, 10' wide: 68 days, 61 bp
12" thick" 80 days, 72 bp

A Magical Medieval Society suggests a population density of 30-40 adults/acre for a small town. Call that 80-100 people/acre. So that puts a settlement of 850 people around 9.5 acres. When I ask Wolfram-Alpha for the circumference of a circle that size, it gives me 2280'. Let's suppose the village has grown and spills past its walls a bit, so maybe 1500' -- that actually only encloses half the town, 4.1 acres. That means:

A 6" thick wooden palisade took 1200 man-days to build, costing 450 bp (4.5 gold). A 12" one took 1800 days.
A 6" thick wooden construction wall took 3000 man-days, costing 1200 bp (12 gold). A 12" one took 4500 days and 1800 bp.
A 6" thick stone wall took 10,200 man-days, costing 9,150 bp (91 gold).

Even the palisade is a pretty significant investment of time and manpower. People would certainly do it if the village is sufficiently threatened. The stone wall is a huge investment, though, you have to really believe it's going to make a difference to build something like that, and you have to plan it far in advance -- even if the whole town is working on it, it will take months, and then they aren't producing any food, so actually it takes years. You can cut corners to some extent on less sturdy construction but a lot of it is just getting stone to the site. It's not totally out of the question, but it's the value of ~15 decent horses. You could build a 5' wall for half that, but invaders could climb over it pretty easily. Also, you need gates and some kind of supports - could be buildings, towers, buttresses. So these estimates are actually low.

Alternatively, you could have a small fort for people to retreat to. Or, less militaristic, you could have one solid stone structure that the town can retreat into. Historically it would probably be a stone church, not sure for Xa'ar. A religious building is less likely to be seized and used as a base by bandits, I would think. An actual fort does seem like it is asking for trouble.

Another alternative is to have partial walls. You might have a gate and stone walls on the side you expect attacks from, and palisades elsewhere, especially if there is rough terrain. This could also happen if there is (or was) a desire for stone fortifications but it's not finished yet or they gave up on it. Having different areas with different strength defenses is not great tactically, but it does mean you can declare that one section can be
defended by NPCs while there is some smaller area which a smaller flanking force of enemies might come through, that can be held by the PCs.

First, thanks for confirming my calculations.  I was a bit higher on area of the town, but not too far off.  I have an idea I am going to present to the team once I have it all laid out.    It will explain how the town is defended and the cost (as a preview think the word amortization) .

Narratively, you also might want to start with a smaller less-fortified village that can be dramatically destroyed and the inhabitants flee to a somewhat larger better-defended village.  Depends where you are going with the story.

If we go that route lets just start in Rapata with a back story of a burned village....

-BP

[egdcltd]

Although a stone wall would be the most effective, I'm not sure the settlement is really big enough or wealthy enough to afford one. A ditch, earth mound and wooden palisade may be all they can manage. If the town has been sacked in the past, any better defences may have been destroyed; there could be the odd bit of stone wall or tower remaining.

The hamlets, yes, probably several farm or other buildings clustered together for mutual support. I think most hamlets tended to focused on one particular "industry" so there could be farming, mining or fruit growing hamlets for example. These might have a simple wooden barricade around them, without a ditch or a mound.

I am not thinking a stone wall like you might see on an English castle.  There the stones are fitted and held in place by a mortar.  Here I was thinking that the stone that had been moved during the building of the town would be piled up and held in place with a  simple mud mortar.  OF course, I was thinking the area is a bit rocky.  If it is more heavily wooded then a wooden palisade is more appropriate.  They would use what they had.  I also set this on a stream or a small river.  Too small to be on most maps but it would run year round.  This would be  source of fresh water, food and power.

Ah, a dry stone wall basically then, with some added mortar. These were built in the UK (usually only about 3-4' or so high) around fields by using the stones that turned up during ploughing the fields. You got a lot of rocks that way. I can't tell from the Xa-ar region map (have to see if I have any other maps that are more helpful) whether or not the precise area is heavily wooded, but the area in general has quite a few trees going by the description, mostly coniferous.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

As Terry has indicated, it is time for those who would like to work on this project to formally get together and decide on roles. I am happy to bring the emergent team over to the Shadow World development forum once team membership is agreed and then to draw up the necessary contracts.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[bpowell]

Ah, a dry stone wall basically then, with some added mortar. These were built in the UK (usually only about 3-4' or so high) around fields by using the stones that turned up during ploughing the fields. You got a lot of rocks that way. I can't tell from the Xa-ar region map (have to see if I have any other maps that are more helpful) whether or not the precise area is heavily wooded, but the area in general has quite a few trees going by the description, mostly coniferous.

This is what i had in mind.  I admit I remember living for a while in Scotland and traveling and seeing stone walls everywhere.  These were products of them working the land and the make-up of the soil.  The wall I envisioned would not be too high.  But looking at the material wood might be more easily available.  If it is conifers then cutting one down and removing the limbs would be relatively easy for a teams of men.  Since this material would be needed for buildings, ships and even heating of homes it would not be a custom purchase.

Each family in town (men, women and order children) would be required to put forth some effort to maintain public structures (such as the wall).  If it was built over several years, this would not cause a huge outlay of immediate cash.  If we amortize the investment of 100 Gold over 30 years, this becomes affordable for a small town.  I see this being just a maintenance cost now days.

I am now making the Inn in town an old ruined tower that has been rebuilt.  I am looking at the timeline to see when this might have been done.  I am also using the cost in C&R to calculate the cost of this structure.  I cannot see a military force leaving the tower in any form that could be used.  But they could have "broken the tower, but not removed its foundations" (A paraphrase of J.R.R.T).  I just have the feeling the cost will be staggering causing the breaking to have been done generations ago.

Speaking of the timeline, I am assuming we are generally working from the timeline in the Xa-ar Source book?  If so, what is the current year?  Are we going with the last year written there?  I would roll that back about 2-3 years, give the characters time to develop a bit before War comes roaring back in.  TKA, what are your thoughts, it is your source book w are working with.

-BP

[egdcltd]

The advantage with coniferous wood is that it's easy to get. If there isn't any at a particular time, simply wait about ten years, and you'll have a halfway decent crop. Add a bit more time, and you'll have a nice pile of, admittedly softwood, lumber.

I would agree to working to a few years before the current Xa-ar timeline. A timeline for the town itself that fits in with the regional timeline is something that also needs doing. Incidentally, Necromancer Games' The Book of Taverns has a tavern in a ruined tower.

So, how do we go about getting this project formally organised? I think everyone who is interested in doing anything should chime in.

[bpowell]

The advantage with coniferous wood is that it's easy to get. If there isn't any at a particular time, simply wait about ten years, and you'll have a halfway decent crop. Add a bit more time, and you'll have a nice pile of, admittedly softwood, lumber.

I agree that the softness of the Pine and its flammability cause me pause, but it is better than no defense at all.  And if the wood is plentiful then replacements for the structure would not be hard to come by.  So the maintenance cost would be reduced.

I would agree to working to a few years before the current Xa-ar timeline. A timeline for the town itself that fits in with the regional timeline is something that also needs doing. Incidentally, Necromancer Games' The Book of Taverns has a tavern in a ruined tower.

I do not have that source book.  Is it available as a PDF?  I am waiting to see if TKA cares if we mess with the timeline (additions only) in the local area.

So, how do we go about getting this project formally organised? I think everyone who is interested in doing anything should chime in.

I know I have been contacted by a member on the board privately asking about getting organized.  I am also, having my standard gaming session today and will see about recruiting.  I think we need to get the group together off boards, get a plan together and present Nicholas with the plan.

-BP

[bpowell]

Revise the last post...I now own the Book of taverns...very interesting.

-BP

[egdcltd]

I was just about to post that the tavern in the book is a humanoid one in the wilds. It's quite a useful book, though, as is Inns & Taverns Essentials from RPG Tips.

[Arc]

As Terry has indicated, it is time for those who would like to work on this project to formally get together and decide on roles. I am happy to bring the emergent team over to the Shadow World development forum once team membership is agreed and then to draw up the necessary contracts.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

So far we have bpowell and egdcltd as lead developers, jdale for rules check and general feedback, and myself for editing, coordination and minor input.

Is there anyone else interested in joining the team in some capacity? Witchking20k?