Topic: Elemental Spells and Breath Weapons

[Thom @ ICE]

Some thoughts in general.... looking for open discussion.  This is rules system independent so I'm not looking for what the book says - I want to know what your heart and mind says.


Three elemental attack types:
Bolt -
* straight line attack aimed at one foe
* long distance range
* high potency damage for entire range
* potential to parry
* resistance means avoiding the attack (all or nothing)


Cone
* expanding attack covering an area
* short range
* with dissipating damage strength as range extends
* no potential to parry
* resistance means either avoiding the attack entirely or reducing the impact


Grenade/Ball 
* Small object launched at a ranged target that explodes into a sphere area of attack after set time
* mid range
* damage within area of effect, dissipating with distance from point of impact
* potential to parry
* resistance means either avoiding the attack entirely or reducing the impact




Am I missing any possibilities?  Am I off base on any of this?
Thoughts?  Tell me what you think....

[markc]

(note spacing get messes up with my edits but I think it is still somewhat readable)
Some fast thoughts
 General/All:
 You also might want to separate out the avoid attack and resist part as I tend to think of resistance as something as fire resistance vs fire attacks and avoiding something like an evasion type ability.
 Parry? Do you mean either add some penalty to the attack because of equipment? Or do you mean I can trade some offense for some defense (OB to DB), in the case of RM/HARP?
     In my game you generally have to have something very special in terms of a magic item/spell or other ability to parry elemental spells and it can         depend on where you are in the target range if you parry/dispel the spell or not. ie if you are in the line of a fireball spell or at its center I might allow you to parry the spell and dispel its effects.
    But in general you are somewhat limited to the things that can apply to your DB vs elemental attacks, which makes the elemental resistance spells         very handy and can be often used in my game or embedded in magic items.

How I differ from your thoughts above:
 Bolt:
  1) single foe or for more powerful version all foes in line
  2) short range to long range, ie low level/rank to high level/rank, so all ranges possible
  3) low level/rank spells might have more damage at shorter ranges and lesser damage at higher ranges or might be just 1 target a 1 power.
 
 Grenade/Ball:
  1) I would separate these two types of spells as in my mind they are very different, the grenade spells or effects I treat like modern grenade attacks with all of the options and the ball attacks I treat more like AoE attacks in that the elemental effect appears in the radius at once and does not simply expand from a point like a grenade attack does.
  2) Time can be set, ie x hexes or travel 5 seconds, but it can also be delayed in the case of a grenade/bomb type attack travel 5 hexes wait for 5 rounds then explode.


MDC 
 
 

[Thom @ ICE]

Avoid / Resist / Parry / Armor
Agreed, 4 different types of defense.
* Avoid means dodging or getting out of the area of attack.
* Resist means being able to ignore part or all of the damage from the type of attack
* Parry means to use a weapon to deflect the attack (only would apply to bolt attacks because the others are area attacks  (perhaps restrict it to magical weapons only - or at least subject the weapon to have to survive a resistance check)
* Armor (including shields) allows you to reduce (or even eliminate) damage from the elemental attack - and would subject the armor/shield to a resistance check


For your differing thoughts
Bolt
1 - I guess if the attack does enough damage to completely rip through the first guy, I'd allow the bolt to continue forward to a second target with reduced effectiveness.
2 - Range would be based upon the power level of the spell, but from beginning to end it would have the same damage (unless #1 above where it created a hole through someone/something)
3 - Too complicated and takes away from the benefit, considering the 1 target limitation.  (IMO)


Grenade/ball
1 - I would not allow the instantaneous creation of Fire/Acid/Electricity/Cold/etc. in a single area of effect. the way you describe ball. It becomes too powerful.   It needs to start from somewhere and expand/move/whatever.  Point of creation needs to be with the caster (IMO) and goes from there.
2 - My expectation is that the grenade is created/thrown/explodes all in the same round.  I know that is somewhat off when you consider a high powered mage throwing a fireball grenade across a battlefield, but if you allow it to take time to be in flight, then you need to allow the targets time to get out of the way.... and that takes something away from it.


Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming....

[markc]

Grenade/Ball:
 If it does not take some time to fly is it not just an instant affect?
  Also is the ball or point of elemental material streaking to the target area just for show? Or is it something like I open a gate to an elemental plane at my finger and then it jumps through the space in a streak and is released/expanded at a specific area/point. 


 Your point about instant creation for ball type spells, just because it is an instant creation in an area does not mean it is uniform in nature, but simply means that the effect is created in that area or across that area. IMHO, this does not make it any more or less powerful then the spell is already.
  If you have lots of terrain or obstacles in the AoE then the targets should get cover bonuses and in some cases multiple cover bonuses, for example behind a shield with pillars one either side of you, or in a hole in the ground with the affect over the top of you (you are just inside of the AoE) 


 Also for grenade type attacks you generally have different radius's of effects in which case a fireball for example might have different attack values depending on the radius you are in.


MDC

[Thom @ ICE]

If I was throwing a flask of acid, the acid arrives in the same round - yet it's not instantaneous.
Same with slinging a stone, flinging a spear or firing a crossbow/bow
I am going with the same concept.  More powerful spells travel further and faster...


The issue with the creation of the element filling the space is that if it is not coming from a central location and spreading outwards it eliminates any possible defense from armor or shield or cover..  If it is coming from a central location and spreading outwards, but just manifesting itself there to begin with (instead of beginning at the caster) then I guess you could do that, as you are manifesting the effect at a range but not "throwing it" at a target.  I could allow that, but the ranged creation would require scaling up in order to create it.


Mage calls upon Summon Fire
* Scaled up for Range of 50' away
* Scaled up for Mystical Fire
* Scaled up for 10' radius of Fire


Same spell.... Summon Fire
* No scaling for Range - fire appears at mage's fingertips
* No scaling for mystical fire - fire is a common flame
* No scaling for radius of effect - fire is the size of a candle flame


They both require the same spell, but far different effects based upon how they are cast. 


Correct - grenade damage decreases as you move away.  Concentration of the element is reduced.
That's what I meant when I wrote: Dissipating with distance from point of impact.

[Warl]

I mostly like how it is handled in RM2/RMSS

There is a bonus/Penalty based on range for Ball/grenade effects.
The character only gets their DB against it if they are moving (have to cancel all other actions) If they held a shield purposely against it they could get benefit from that. This of course is if a Specific individual is targeted.
If they are targeting a specific Location rather than a specific enemy, then yes, I allow for movement of the opponents IF #1 they are aware and see the Ball coming at them and #2 if they have "initiative" to give them time to react to it.
I consider how close the target location is to the range of the spell and divide that range by 10 seconds, that determines how long it takes to reach it's Target. If the target is 40 feet away, and the max range of the fireball is 100 feet, then it reaches the target in 4 seconds. If the range was 200 feet then it gets there in 2 seconds.

[jdale]

Calculating travel time seems like unnecessary detail. The necessary temporal resolution is whether it happens in the same round or a future round. The only distinction I could see is whether targets have time to take cover, orient their shields to face the blast center point, drop to the ground, etc. The rules could address that by saying "targets have just enough time to take cover if it is within 5 feet" etc.

It's classic (i.e. movies etc) for heroes to be able to ward off dragon's breath with their shields, at least for bolt-type dragon's breath. For cones typically you have some kind of caster leaping in the way with a bubble- or arc- like protective spell. I don't know if either of those possibilities are well-modeled by RPGs.

[Warl]

in a round style game, perhaps not.

When you track movement of characters second by second, it become more realistic.

[Cory Magel]

Grenade/Ball 
* potential to parry

That's the only thing I question.

First, let's take an actual modern grenade.  You might bat it away with a shield, but unless you bat it away far enough you're still going to be in the range.  You either need to cover it up and/or find cover yourself.

Next, let's go with a improvised 'grenade' like a molotov cocktail or a flask of acid etc that are designed to break upon impact.  You might block it with a shield, but I wouldn't want to be the guy holding the shield, because it's going to break on your shield assuming you even intercept it and, aside from the damage to your shield (and possibly the arm holding it) odds are you're still going to feel some of the impact (or 'splash').

Last, a Fireball (or similar).  It depends on how you explain the result and your surroundings
- Is it literally an explosion from a center point?  Most people think of it this way.  If so, other than escaping the Area Of Effect, how would you block it?  With a shield?  And would the fire wrap around the shield?  Right now RMSS says shields don't count, but I think they would have SOME benefit it this is the throught process.  But, what if the AOE is larger than the area the target is in?  Even if you have a shield the effect is going to envelope the target anyhow.  If you were in a field and a propane tank exploded cover will probably help you, but if you're in a room with that same tank you're probably still in serious trouble even if you do have cover.
- Is it something more like "A spherical area of effect is exposed to the elemental plane of fire"?  Some people work it like this.  In which case no amount of shielding or cover is going to help you so long as you are in the AOE.

Some of that can apply to the other attacks such as Bolts and Cones (cones in particular if you're in an enclosed space) but it's most pronounced with Balls.

[markc]

Opinion: just because you do not see a flash or a jump from the casters hand to the target area does not mean that the target cannot get out of the way of an AoE. If the area in question suddenly starts to exhibit strange elemental phenomenon people will get out of that area.
  IMHO the small streak of elemental material that leads to the area is just an hold over from D&D's fireball description and is simply that a description. If it was really part of the spells nature then people in RM should make an observation roll in combat to see the elemental streak or if it is large enough then object/people should be able to interfere with its path and have the ability to cause the spell to trigger before it gets to its defined location.


 Does anyone allow for someone/thing to trigger a fireball before it reaches it target location besides using some of the spells on the Spell Reigns spell list (that is I think that the spell are on that list)? But as a GM would you allow an object to move in the path of a fireball and prevent it for reaching its target area?
  I myself have never thought of moving something in the path of an fireball as like most people I have played the spell that as soon as you cast it then it its effect happens, and the elemental material streak is just an instant side effect but if targets are to get a change to move out of the way then there has to be some time for the body to react to the elemental material that is streaking from the casters hand to the target location. If there is some time element involved from the casting of the spell to its detonation then there might be the possibility that something will get in the way of its path.


MDC     

[jdale]

If it was really part of the spells nature then people in RM should make an observation roll in combat to see the elemental streak or if it is large enough then object/people should be able to interfere with its path and have the ability to cause the spell to trigger before it gets to its defined location.

I don't know how you would handle that in the game, but it does make me think of one of the most amazing things I've seen in a LARP. We use little beanbags ("spell packets") to represent spells, you have to hit the target for the spell to take effect. Mage vs fighter, the mage threw a fire spell that would cause instant death and the fighter instantly threw his hat, catching it in midair and allowing the fighter to close the distance. It was effortless, as if the hat throwing, the charge, and the strike were all one smooth motion.

I can certainly imagine it as a scene in a movie, the villain is throwing his fireballs left and right. The cunning hero, observing how they work, tosses something to disrupt, block, or prematurely explode the fireball before it has gone off.

[Thom @ ICE]

Grenade/Ball 
* potential to parry

That's the only thing I question.

That's what happens when you copy/paste and then edit.  That was unintended.   No, for Grenade/Ball effects, I would not allow Parry for all of the reasons you listed.

In regards to Shield and fire wrapping around it... I like the heroic concept, so your shield would give you protection equal to the coverage it provides - assuming the shield itself survives the attack.

[Thom @ ICE]

Opinion: just because you do not see a flash or a jump from the casters hand to the target area does not mean that the target cannot get out of the way of an AoE. If the area in question suddenly starts to exhibit strange elemental phenomenon people will get out of that area.
  IMHO the small streak of elemental material that leads to the area is just an hold over from D&D's fireball description and is simply that a description. If it was really part of the spells nature then people in RM should make an observation roll in combat to see the elemental streak or if it is large enough then object/people should be able to interfere with its path and have the ability to cause the spell to trigger before it gets to its defined location.


 Does anyone allow for someone/thing to trigger a fireball before it reaches it target location besides using some of the spells on the Spell Reigns spell list (that is I think that the spell are on that list)? But as a GM would you allow an object to move in the path of a fireball and prevent it for reaching its target area?
  I myself have never thought of moving something in the path of an fireball as like most people I have played the spell that as soon as you cast it then it its effect happens, and the elemental material streak is just an instant side effect but if targets are to get a change to move out of the way then there has to be some time for the body to react to the elemental material that is streaking from the casters hand to the target location. If there is some time element involved from the casting of the spell to its detonation then there might be the possibility that something will get in the way of its path.


MDC     

I will separate Grenade and Ball attacks, based upon the previous discussion about making a ball of fire explode out from a location at a distance.

Grenade attacks - Yes, you can disrupt their flight, but it instantly activates the full effect.  The only ways I can think of where that would be applicable (considering my grenade version always arrives in the same round it was cast):
1 - Diving behind cover (not really disrupting it)
2 - Hold up a shield and hide behind it (assuming the shield can survive the blast) it will give you defense similar to cover
3 - Closing a door (of course, you'd need to be standing there and ready to do it)   Of course, telekinesis could do it and with the closed door, the center of the effect then becomes the door and as long as the door survives the attack, the effect only goes to the one side.

[Cory Magel]

Grenade/Ball 
* potential to parry

That's the only thing I question.

That's what happens when you copy/paste and then edit.  That was unintended.   No, for Grenade/Ball effects, I would not allow Parry for all of the reasons you listed.

In regards to Shield and fire wrapping around it... I like the heroic concept, so your shield would give you protection equal to the coverage it provides - assuming the shield itself survives the attack.

Ah! Heh. I wondered where the parry was coming from.

Yeah, I do think shields can help a little against something like a Fireball that is described as expanding from a center point (provided you're not in an enclosed space small than the AOE).  I think I'd cut the bonus the shield grants and tell the player it is assumed they are 'taking cover' behind their shield.  Obviously a buckler ain't gonna cut it.  But a medium shield you could crouch down behind.  If the player did have the PC do this I'd say you lose your action that round, or if you've already taken it the next rounds action.

3 - Closing a door (of course, you'd need to be standing there and ready to do it)   Of course, telekinesis could do it and with the closed door, the center of the effect then becomes the door and as long as the door survives the attack, the effect only goes to the one side.

Hmmm. Why did I never think of that.  Insert an object in the path of the attack.  I might be able to come up with some creative uses of instant spells to help with this... (we have a GM who once let us use a "Deflections" spell on a foe jumping from one raised platform to another).

[Old Man]

We've usually done ball spells as the magician opens a small portal to elsewhere via magics at the center point. The elemental matter explodes outward, hence shield coverage would be effective. Also there would be nothing to "deflect" other than the essence of the spell itself (subject to cancels and counterspells instead).

I was wondering whether fogs/clouds of elements are sufficiently different from balls or cones to warrant their own attack time (fog banks and clouds larger in scale that your average Stun Cloud). Also perhaps a class for immolation (aka Balrog) type effects?

Regards,
Old Man